What have we raised?

[Givemeanear]

As a family we are in a dreadful situation, our eldest son just hates me and OH!

He has always been difficult, we had a nightmare through his teens, ended in a court appearance and community service. That stopped that type of illegal behaviour, he cleaned up his friends and no more problems like that for a good three years.

He is now 21.5, currently working part time, but due to start full time in three weeks.

This all sounds great, but it's not! He is vile in the home, his room is absolutely revolting, like something off hoarders. He literally throws rubbish on the floor.

He only has a job as myself and OH constantly get him up and out of the house, we are screamed at, squared up to, threatened and generally spoken to like dirt.

This weekend, Saturday his alarm was going off, he kept snoozing it, so about five mins before he was due to leave the house, I said are you not getting up. When he found out the time, I got a torrent of abuse for leaving it so late. That night he rolled in at 5am, OH trying to get him up for work the next day was met with abide, threatening behaviour. He is a MASSIVE liar, OH was standing over him in bed saying get up, he is saying I am up! He does that all the time, ridiculous, mad lies, but then totally denies it.

That night he forgot his key, OH went to work at 4am, I was woken by him trying to get in at 4.30am, the next morning I didn't bother to get him up for work.

He does nothing in the house, the main problem though is he denial that he has ever done anything wrong. He blames us for everything to the point it is just madly ridiculous! Like he will stand there kick something and break it and then completely deny it.

It is extremely hard to talk sense with someone like this.

I know everyone will say kick him out, but how? He would not go, he would be back, he has no money.

He pays a pittance in rent, he won't abide by any rules, is currently in the shower and will be for 15 mins even though we say 5 mins max.

In reality our eldest DS owes us everything, we have got him out of so much trouble, saved his job 10000 times, but he clearly hates everything about us.

For the record, youngest DS is 19, and just a run of the mill teenager, we have a great relationship.

I almost feel sorry for eldest DS, except it is his own doing.

There isn't an easy answer to this.

I'm so sorry. When it comes to our children, it's never as simple as saying "don't put up with it anymore" like you would with a partner. The ties - and pain - run a lot deeper than that.

Over the internet it's impossible to diagnose anyone, but it does sound rather like a mild personality disorder coupled with a large dose of immaturity. Sadly, there is nothing you can do about that. As your son is over the age of 18, unless he is willing to admit he has a problem and seek help for it, nothing will get done about it.

If he does have an undiagnosed problem and doesn't get help, chances are that he may well get himself into more trouble, rather than shaping up. I understand the temptation to let him stay, I really do.

However, if you let him stay, things will definitely get worse. I've seen this play out time and time again. It is only a matter of time before physical violence becomes a part of your normal life.

If you kick him out, he may well hit rock bottom. Unless he does, or otherwise has an epiphany, however, he will simply reach that point anyway, but dragging you down with him in the process.

The biggest favour you can do your son is to teach him consequences, and that no kind of love, even that of a parent for a child, means putting up with being abused in your own home.

I doubt that you'll feel able to take this advice though, because emotions and head often don't marry up when we're talking about our children. I wouldn't judge you for that. There but for the grace of god...

Until he leaves, I would suggest picking your battles. The shower thing, unless there is a good reason for it, does seem restrictive. I take 10 mins in the shower and don't really dawdle.

If he wants his room to be a tip, let him be. As long as he doesn't expect you to pick through it for plates and washing.

Let him know you won't be getting him up for work any more. At nearly 22 he is old enough to get himself up or take the consequences. Let him know some basic rules - you'll do his washing along with yours if he brings it down. You'll cook for him provided that he pays you a reasonable amount of housekeeping and that he is polite to you.

He sounds like a toddler who has not been given boundaries. (Not an accusation, it's just what he sounds like).

Could you ask the dr to refer him for cbt?

I don't think you should kick him out.

I'm not sure what you should do to fix it though. Probably talk through calmly with him. It must be stressful for him as well as you this helicopter parenting and babying of him you have done all his life.

He needs to grow up and to do that you need to stop rescuing him from everything, it is a form of control.

It also sounds like he needs some mental health support.

He needs to be responsible for himself and you need to let him. He needs space in his (your) home to live independently as an adult I think. It does sound as if you are still treating him like he is 8 and he is behaving accordingly.

He does need to leave. You don't want to end up like my parents. My brother is still at home and he is 47 years old!

The line between bad behaviour and ill health (as in mental illness, depression, disorder) is very grey and blurred. Sounds to me like an underlying problem which needs addressing. His aggression may be masking confusion/anxiety/fear.

For all those posters going on about his MH (which includes me), please be aware that there is nothing the OP can do about this other than suggest to her DS that he has a problem he should seek help with.

MH services will not engage with a service user unless that person has been either sectioned (nothing here to warrant that) or has asked for help voluntarily. No amount of beseeching from well-meaning family or friends will result in an intervention. This is a man who is over 18 and entitled to autonomy over his care and life.

Unless the OP's DS is prepared to admit he needs help and seeks it out himself this is not a solution. The question is, therefore, what can the OP do to (a) make it more likely that her DS will admit to needing help, and (b) protect herself, the rest of her family and her home, in the meantime.

Agree with Dahlen. I regularly provide advice to mothers regarding their sons nd abusive behaviour, and they rarely take it. When I provide advice to women fleeing men they no longer love, and they do follow the advice, things get better almost immediately.

I think the idea is -

Let him feel the consequences of his actions.
By not saving him from them. (Don't get him out of bed for example - if he is late; his problem.)
Give him a moving out date and stick to it. If it comes to it, and he has not packed, pack his stuff for him / or don't - but change the lock and present him with a letter stating that he is being evicted as of X date. If you think there will bve trouble, you personallu (mpother) go away and let others handle it.
If he causes any criminal damage, call 999.
They may or may not press charges (espechially if you don't want them to) but once you explain that he has had formal notice to leave, and then a formal eviction letter, and now he is behaving like this, they will assist him in leaving your home.

Be ready for recriminations etc - just like he did when he was 2 and learning to use a potty.

I must ask what you have contributed to this scenario as well and the risks of you not changing that....ie have you been too soft and is this the result?

The old adage - we can't change anyone but ourselves - and - sometimes we have to watch those we love suffer because of their own actions and behaviour. C'est la vie. In my view, the sooner people understand that, the better and the more successful they are likely to be....

Throw him out, I finally had my stepson removed from my house by the police when he threw a full force punch at me while I had an 18 month old on my hip.

We lived in fear of his temper for years, so we were in a situation, where we had a 20 year old, earning more than his father, being waited on hand and foot, because if you asked him to do anything, he flew into a rage.

As long as he was never challenged then everything ran smoothly and it was only after he left I realised how dominated by him our household was.

If however you met him and werent in our household, you would have thought he was the most charming and pleasant young man in the world, and successful to boot, when in fact he was a total and utter monster.

He had NO chores, did nothing, he had a fantastic job, earned a fortune.

My advice to you - take care for your younger son, because he too is living in this domestic violence situation.

I feel that living out of home into a shared home would be a huge realisation that to get on in normal society you have to act a certain way to people. You could maybe pay his rent for 6 months (direct to landlord) and then he's on his own when he's had time to build up wages from working full time.

Sharing a kitchen, paying your share of the bills, getting up and out on time are all skills you need for life and because he's lazy and possibly because you've allowed him to be so lazy, he hasn't gained all of these skills.

If it is a MH issue and he fails to get on in life, it will become apparent very quickly and hopefully he will get the help he needs.

I was going to suggest you start secretly recording his outbursts and rages, not only for him to see for himself (shock factor when he's in a calm mood) but also as 'proof' to any prof help he has contact with. However, if he doesn't want help or admit that he has a problem then sadly there's not much you'd be able to do with that 'proof'
Sorry I'm not much help but really hope that you can find a solution, you don't deserve this treatment and behaviour and he, at the moment, doesn't deserve your patience, love and care.
Good luck.

OP, I am so sorry you're going through this.

Rather than encouraging him to move out immediately (which may lead him to play the victim/blame you and OH even more) could you set down some really clear boundaries and rules that he must adhere to if he wants to stay and make it very clear that his current behaviour is not compatible with him living with you. Including no verbal abuse or intimidation (give clear examples), getting himself up in the morning, getting to work on time etc. And get him to sign his agreement to the terms. If he doesn't adhere to them, or if he doesn't want to agree, then he can make his own way and find somewhere else to live.

That way he takes responsibility for himself and has only himself to blame if you ask him to move on as a result of breaking the rules. My concern is that if you ask him to leave immediately, rather than give him a really obvious last chance to turn it around, he will blame you rather than take responsibility for his own actions. I'm sure you've given him chance after chance after chance but he needs to understand that it's his choices that are directing his life, not yours.

You and dh must present a united front.
Decide what you want from him in terms of behaviour in the house (prioritise the big stuff, shower time is irrelevant here).
Tell him he's responsible for getting himself off to work, you won't do it.
Tell him unless he changes, he's moving out and you will pay a deposit and one month's rent on a flat for him.

Basically stop indulging him and giving him a free ride. Spell out to him, in writing if he refuses to listen, precisely what you expect from him if he wishes to live under your roof. i.e. basic manners, no swearing, pulling his weight around the house with regards to chores and generally earning his keep. If he cant manage these basic reasonable requests over a probationary period (say one month) he will have to leave. However, if you do take this option you have to see it through to its conclusion. We are talking about changing the locks and threatening police involvement if he kicks off. You simply cant have your household dominated by this young man. He does not need to go and live in a flat on his own, he can move into a cheap bedsit where you dont need a huge deposit. When nobody is doing the cooking, laundry or paying the bills for him he might start to take on a slightly better work ethic.

I have noticed on these pages people are very quick to 'medicalise' crap behaviour. Maybe I am a bit 'old school' like my Irish dad when it comes to these sort of things, his suggestion would be along the lines of "give the useless little fecker a kick up the hole and tell him to cop himself on"

Firstly, thank you everyone for your input. There are a number of very valuable comments and ideas.

I would concur that both OH and I, have most definitely over indulged him. He thinks he is a king and this is learned behaviour.

I know neither myself or OH can take no more, we like the quiet life, we don't go out a lot and love the 'home'. DS is making this uncomfortable, we find ourselves going out to a avoid confrontation.

I have showed OH this thread, he was understandably moved by some of the comments, not that any were unkind in any way, but they were hard hitting. OH feels he should be shielding me younger DS from this behaviour, I told him we are a team, he should not feel like this. There cannot be a harder job than having to be hard hitting with your own child.

We have talked ourselves in and out of lots of scenarios tonight, throwing him out, ultimatums, last chances..... But one thing is for sure, we have reached a crossroads, both for him and is.

We are going to sleep on it tonight (not that either of us will!) but we know change is going to have to happen.

Thanks again, for your advice, sharing your stories and being honest.

xx

Good luck, love I wish you were my mum

Give, you and your OH sound like a real team and that is so important - I am really pleased that you are supporting each other so well. And great that you are sleeping on it and deciding together what is right for you. Keep posting as and when you need.

As long as you pull together it will work out

Tough love sometimes, SS did not have mental health issues, he had a nasty uncontrollable temper and imposing physical strength.

The impact on the younger children was horrendous. We just didn't realise, all we felt after we threw him out was free to be honest, only we hadnt realised we weren't free til he was gone.

Good luck I know how hard it is - but believe me, there comes a point when the line is just crossed and you can take NO MORE.

OP, I was the female version of your son at the same age. I wasn't agressive but I was lazy, I lied and I was crap with my money and job.

My mum kicked me out and it was the absolute making of me. I lasted a year away from home, being a complete waster, before I was begging to come home again on their terms.

Spent another year at home abiding by their rules and getting along fabulously then moved out properly.

Now I can appreciate just what a toe rag I was and I have a much better relationship with my mum.

Good luck!

You need to support him in moving out. Explain that he has 1 month exactly to leave (and keep to it). If he allows you, or perhaps his brother, point him in the right direction of bedsit's / house shares. Enquire about benefits (like housing benefit, council tax benefit) he might be entitled for help with and if he wants help him with this. He may well be very poor when he moves out, but many people have to do it, and do. If he does nothing in the way of looking for somewhere else to live, keep to your word and leave his stuff outside with a letter saying you'll always love him and be there for him but for all your sakes this is the only thing to do. He may well hate you for a while, but he'll find a friends sofa and eventually his own place and will thank you for it in the long run.
It doesn't sound like any of you can go on as you are. And it is frankly Ridiculous that you have to wake him up So He goes to work. Time for tough love.

If you don't have much [documentable] to suggest MH, Get Tough.

From what you've described, the one DC who is a dear is an accident. The other two are total piss-takers.

It's still not too late to instill a "we love you, but we've got boundaries and YOU'VE got responsibliies" mindset. Start to work on it.

Some posters had done the "take everything away" from a teen (storing all his/her possessions with a neighbour/friend or storage) - tell DS if he doesn't [whatever - pick a fighting line - either small or big] toe the line, you'll change the locks and he can stay at a friend's without his stuff, then earn it back by [xx behaviour].

Well done, OP and DH. Treat this like a team. And sleeping on it is Good! You need to know what's best for you - what you can manage, etc. Well done.

Fairyegg - what made you think "bedsits" needed an apostrophe?...

I have a situation not too unlike yours but its my dd, she's 21. Though she is a full time, well paid apprentices.

Under 25's are not entitled th housing benefit. Unless they have dependants.

My dd is coming home from holiday on Friday. I will be making it very clear how much rent she needs to pay& the behaviour i expect from her.

If she doesn't like it, she can leave. I really hope she does!!