What have we raised?

[Givemeanear]

As a family we are in a dreadful situation, our eldest son just hates me and OH!

He has always been difficult, we had a nightmare through his teens, ended in a court appearance and community service. That stopped that type of illegal behaviour, he cleaned up his friends and no more problems like that for a good three years.

He is now 21.5, currently working part time, but due to start full time in three weeks.

This all sounds great, but it's not! He is vile in the home, his room is absolutely revolting, like something off hoarders. He literally throws rubbish on the floor.

He only has a job as myself and OH constantly get him up and out of the house, we are screamed at, squared up to, threatened and generally spoken to like dirt.

This weekend, Saturday his alarm was going off, he kept snoozing it, so about five mins before he was due to leave the house, I said are you not getting up. When he found out the time, I got a torrent of abuse for leaving it so late. That night he rolled in at 5am, OH trying to get him up for work the next day was met with abide, threatening behaviour. He is a MASSIVE liar, OH was standing over him in bed saying get up, he is saying I am up! He does that all the time, ridiculous, mad lies, but then totally denies it.

That night he forgot his key, OH went to work at 4am, I was woken by him trying to get in at 4.30am, the next morning I didn't bother to get him up for work.

He does nothing in the house, the main problem though is he denial that he has ever done anything wrong. He blames us for everything to the point it is just madly ridiculous! Like he will stand there kick something and break it and then completely deny it.

It is extremely hard to talk sense with someone like this.

I know everyone will say kick him out, but how? He would not go, he would be back, he has no money.

He pays a pittance in rent, he won't abide by any rules, is currently in the shower and will be for 15 mins even though we say 5 mins max.

In reality our eldest DS owes us everything, we have got him out of so much trouble, saved his job 10000 times, but he clearly hates everything about us.

For the record, youngest DS is 19, and just a run of the mill teenager, we have a great relationship.

I almost feel sorry for eldest DS, except it is his own doing.

[WinkyWinkola]

He has to leave home.

He is making you responsible for basic life stuff like waking up in time for work. And abusing you for it.

He had to take responsibility for himself.

You cannot spend the rest of your life making sure he is ok. That is his job now.

Please make him find his own place to live and you start to enjoy life.

Do not allow him to come back and blame you for anything. It's up to him now.

[FiftyShadesofGreyMatter]

Speaking from personal experience, you have no choice but to make him leave.
Only then will he start to grow up and change, and take responsibility for himself.

[PurpleRayne]

He sounds mentally ill or disturbed tbh... can you afford to get some private consultation / input?

[onefewernow]

He is not mentally ill, I think.

I think he should be sat down and calmly told what you will tolerate. And more important, that he will be leaving and when if he doesn't take note.

If he walks away or refuses to listen, write it down or text him.

Also, as a parent of adult kids myself, it is critical that you divide in your head what are issues for you and what are issues for him.

That means knowing which of his actions are your business.

So, you should not make him hold down a job- that's his issue. You should say he won't live with you unless he pays x rent- that's your issue.

As for stuff like the bathroom- relax on that would be my advice- who wants a parent or landlord outside the door with a stop watch?

Finally you need to recognise where he has learned that boundaries mean nothing. He has probably gotten away with too much in the past, which you should own up to. Say that you see that, and that in his own interests that is going to change.

[cleopatrasasp]

I don't think he's mentally ill, I think he's abusive and unpleasant and needs to learn that actions bring about consequences. He is 21, not a dependant child.

Put him out and he will either sink or swim. If he is just a lazy, entitled little sod then he will soon pull his socks up. If not, then this will soon become apparent and you can make decisions about that further down the line.

Good luck OP, I'm a great believer in tough love when required and I think you need to exercise it here for your own sanity and for the good of your son as well.

[SlangKing]

Not so much the specifics, but the constant rows, noise and stress sound EXACTLY like my teenage years in the family home. I feel like I should have more insight into this but can only muster a half-baked theory. Otherwise I can only post "stuff" which might help you or not. The differences are that I didn't smash things up in the home, didn't threaten self harm and didn't lie if I'd been busted already,, but would lie if the truth was elusive. The similarities and just maybe an answer for you - I was an angry boy (for reasons I'll get to) and I took great delight in pissing my parents off. Coming home late, sometimes drunk, later drunk or stoned, class C, B or A. Twice with police - vandalism and theft/fraud - caution and 6 months suspended. Coulda been 50 or 100 times if they'd caught me more often. A typical convo when I'd stagger in after midnight - Where have you been? "Out" - Out where? "Outsiiiide",, and downhill from there,, shouting, swearing or I'd ignore them and go to my room. Whatever comment or action would piss them off the most, I'd do. I was the same with teachers at school. Got on great with my peers and with their parents but mine I loathed. If they left me alone I left them alone, otherwise it was war. So, my crappy theory - despite the differences in our methods, maybe your eldest hates you, for reasons you (or he) can't fathom. I'm also the eldest of 3 boys and my bro's weren't nearly as bad. Anyway, read on and hope you don't recognise yourselves cuz this is the good bit. Please note that I didn't join all the dots till much later,, but I was aware of some of it. I have no doubt that my parents wanted the best for me. I wasn't abused in any way worthy of the term but did they ever screw up. When I was 6 or 7 they sent me off to piano lessons. I have a musical ear. We had an upright piano and I'd learn my homework in no time. Then, I'd learn things I heard on the TV or radio. Only a finger or 2 but the right notes, intervals and time sig's. You'd think they try and nurture that but nooo. Worse, I started to improvise my own tunes and would get told off. When I persisted - my first act of rebellion - it wasn't long before the piano got sold. I played football and cricket for my junior school and soon they had me playing badminton in the evenings. Again, I'm gifted with good hand/eye coordination. I'd eventually play for my county at cricket and badminton. My parents must've spent thousands on equipment cuz they approved of that. Later, when me and some friends at school formed a band, not a penny,, ever. My mate's dad, by this time more of a father to me than my own, bought me a drum kit. My dad described my musical aspirations as a "pipe dream". So I'm learning that they'll support THEIR dreams of me becoming some sporting legend but totally disapproved of our band. The other guys' parents attended our early gigs, not mine. When we later cut a single they had the gall to ask for copies for their friends. One incidental thing - in America and now here you can get scholarships to sporting acadamies if you show promise. NOT when I was a kid. My parents were asked to withdraw me from a badminton tournament when I was 13 or 14 to give one of the other kids a chance. They did. So much for getting good at something then,,, other ppl reap the awards. Worse, they'd take me to matches/tournaments and even when I won I "should've won by more". NEVER good enough. No such issues at cricket, they rarely came. I was in the adult team at 14, learning about my craft and 70's binge drinking (yippee!). Final chapter - SCHOOL - The government were pissing about with catchment areas. I should've gone to the local comp' with my friends but nope, my parents wanted me to go to the Grammar. They and those of 3 other kids wangled it so's we could take the 11+. Two of us passed so bye bye friends and into the unknown. It was OK for a bit untill my stubborn streak materialised. Winter - no football here till the 3rd year,, it's a rugby school. I tried it a few times but didn't like it so refused to play. Don't remember what punishments I got now but I never did play rugby again. We could do hockey the following year. The important part is that the head of games loved rugby and hated me for the duration then picked on my brothers when they arrived. Academically, I got A's n B's for a while but I resented and struggled with homework. My brother mentioned recently that maybe I was just tired cuz at this time my parents had me playing badminton 3 nights a week - sometimes 4 - all day tournaments at weekends. Could be. Whatever the case, I was struggling and grades were dropping and I was getting grief from parents and teachers about it. So, I'd made this big effort with some history homework but drawn a silly picture in a margin. I was expecting at least 15 out of 20,,, and was given 0/20,,, cuz of my silly pic'. More effort, no reward. --- Hope you can see where this was going cuz I just reached the character limit!

[bugdem]

Honestly slangking I just see a whole lot of pitiful excuses for bad behaviour. I also see a complete lack of awareness of anyone else's views or thoughts on the situations you've mentioned. Not going to the local comp with your pals meant you were allowed to give your parents years of grief despite them wanting you to go to a better school so that it could give you a better chance and more options. Yeah, they sound like awful parents. It must be all their fault.

[JustinBsMum]

I want to say to OP that you really must consider DS2. His whole teen years will have been blighted by the rows over DS1s behavior.

I was a model teenager, like DS2, - because my DF was an alcoholic and I didn't want to make my DMs life harder, or that was how I saw it as a teenager. Perhaps your DS2 is the same, feels he can't be who he wants to be but only what he should as you already have such a hard time with DS2. That's not a healthy way to live your life imo.

Explain to DS1 what you are doing and why but chuck him out, change the locks and get police if there are problems.

[SlangKing]

Then I guess you support the nature over nurture theory, BUG, since other than the parent/school combination I've avoided all but fleeting negative influences. By that theory, I should still be a social pest but haven't been for 30 years. I've never abused a partner, haven't had a fight since I was 11, get on with people. Beyond what I posted and a few things that wouldn't fit, nothing else explains that rage. I've just got happier since leaving that environment. Agreed, I was a complete shit, but that isn't my nature.

[Roshbegosh]

Think I see what you mean slang we can behave in a particular way because of the family dynamic. The anger and resentment were stopping you be who you are. We all do need to grow up and leave to develop fully into adults and the OP facilitating and enabling all this behaviour is keeping the DS as an out of control toddler but with more physical power and awareness of there being no boundaries to how badly he can behave. He has to go or he will continue to be stuck in this pathetic monster phase, maybe right into his 30's, 40's etc

[something2say]

Shells welly why should your daughter get housing benefit to move out? Why can't she pay for a room in a shared house and save up for her first flat like the rest of us? You're the reason the benefits system is changing, you expect her to be housed by the state even tho she could be self reliant. You think she should choose not to be....rather than need that help.

[Offred]

Something2say - I see it the other way round actually. Why shouldn't anyone expect help from the state which is ultimately responsible for this shit economy which means virtually no-one can actually afford to live? Plenty of people in work who need top up housing benefit to afford rent too.

[Offred]

In fact that is the largest portion of HB claims. Working people who can't afford rent.

The government should be concerned about that miserable fact which is not beyond their control and which their corporate favouring policies have created rather than punishing and stigmatising ordinary people.

[JustinBsMum]

Slangking - interesting what you say but do you, now you are older, cut DPs some slack for their methods. I mean, they are a product of their upbringing, they didn't come into this world swearing to make their firstborn's life difficult. And, as a parent you are very influenced by your own upbringing, things are taken onboard unconsciously. Do you have DCs of your own?
I know I did things for my DCs because I believed I had missed out, perhaps your DPs were just doing that for you. Unfortunately it didn't suit your makeup.

[Priceliss]

Okay my question is he is 21 an adult why let me live at home if he can't have the basic respect to treat your home well and you?

My mother had same with my brother and seriously once she put her foot down after YEARS of baring his awful behavior the better she felt. He is your son but at the end of the day is an adult and can be treated as one. This is coming from a 26 year old woman - I'm not much older than him and have lived out since I was 17 by myself!

[Priceliss]

FYI I don't think he has mental health problems my brother doesn't and behaves EXACTLY the same way. It's called spoiled little boy syndrome LOL

[Givemeanear]

Thanks again, for your replies. After much consideration, we have come up with a short term idea. My dad passed away in May, his flat is empty but being sold. We are getting him to move in there, maximum one month, but it's a start.

I am very upset and down about it all, I know we have made mistakes, but still can't see how someone you love would enforce this, leaving no choice.

I need to be strong and do this.

Thanks again.

G xx

[MacMac123]

He sounds like my sister who is autistic.
Eventually it got so bad with her bullying/abusing my mum, and her slovenly hoarding type ways, my mum bought her a house and put her in it! She works but earns pittance so she still has an allowance (she's 31) and is still a massive liability In many ways but things have improved with her being out of the home. Shell be dependent on my mum/us forever but she can manage outside of the house and that makes family relations happier.
She wasn't diagnosed with autism until she was 23 btw because at the time she was born, things were different and these things not widely understood. We were just told she was 'retarded' and would hAve a mental age of 12 and to get on with it. My mug fought for a diagnosis/help for 23 years, the girl couldn't even speak until she was 7.
Anyway, that's another story.

[catameringue]

I hope he doesn't damage the flat or take the Michael with you, op.

If it's only temp then write him an eviction notice now with a date on it you're happy with. Even if it's a date a few months away.

[CookieDoughKid]

Hi Op. Keep strong. Your son will be FINE. i asked my 21 year old cousin about this and he said at home, your boy have no incentives to change and behave. Once you kick him out, he will have to change. He'll learn but unfortunately, he won't learn at home. I think there is this culture of feeling entitled among young people these days. He has no mental issues. He's been taking you both for mugs!

Honestly, let him live his life Without you as a safety net. He will be just fine!!

[SlangKing]

J.BSMUM - I did acknowledge that I had no doubt that my parents set out with the best of intentions,, but no good deed goes unpunished. When things went wrong they had no 'tools' to identify the problem, much less fix it. Back then, dyslexics were labled stupid or retarded and any wayward behaviour was met with yelling, sundry humiliations and violence. No school councellors, tests for food allergies or attention disorders. As well as the kids 'properly' caned, I saw one kid knocked unconscious with a length of wood, another slippered on his bare arse in front of the class,, knuckles rapped with the edge of a ruler, more slaps than I could hope to count and a few clouts with a blackboard rubber. I got off light by comparison,, dragged over some desks by the lapels, swung around by the hair and pushed fully clothed into our outdoor swimming pool. I was a non swimmer - kids saved me from drowning while the teachers who did it were doubled over laughing. One thing I can tell you about my pa's upbringing,, he went to the same school. What else. Neither of them were tactile. If I was ever hugged I don't remember it. Now that I think about it the only instance of positive touching I can recall is my mum touching my forehead when I had a temperature. She could express affection verbally but my dad is the epitome of 'repressed'. Do I (still) hate them? No. I didn't stick around till I was 21.5,, moved out when I turned 18. Thereafter my relationship with my mum kept improving till she died. We'd have our good days even during the 'wars',,, blazing rows could end in fits of giggles. Made some effort with my dad but we're polar opposites so it's pointless. If I bump into him I'm civil and that's it. I don't give him much thought until I see threads like this one. I think he tried his best but was too inflexable to adapt when things weren't working. And no, no kids. When I was younger I was fearful of having a family like mine. Now that I think I'd make a pretty good parent I think it'd be irresponsible of me since I might not live long enough to see any offsping through college (a minimun requirement). Not something I'm gonna lose any sleep over - I'm content with my current lot.

[RaRaZ]

I'd suggest doing what Horsemad suggests: setting him up somewhere else and letting him get on with it. If you can't do that and you're worried he might be a risk to himself, you need to set some VERY firm boundaries. He can't, at 21.5, expect to live with you and do exactly what he pleases. He's got money so he should pay rent - obviously he can afford to pay you more if he can afford to be out all night. He also needs to treat your house, and you two, with respect. If he can't do that, he needs to go elsewhere: a shared house perhaps, where he'd get kicked out pretty quick if he tried the same.

[devilinside]

Actually, I'd call it being low in empathy, which is very common and very tough for parents concerned. In my family it is my dad who lacks empathy, and this has caused all sorts of issues. really the only way is to keep them at arms length (easier said than done when it's a close family member)

I don't think lack of empathy has anything to do with autism btw. I have Asperger's myself and find this an insult (although, I can understand someone could be low in empathy and autistic, one is not a symptom of the other)

[Matildathecat]

OP I have s very similar son of exactly the same age. He's at uni and last week we had to go and meet the landlord of the house he rented last year with three other lads.

I was so ashamed I could have wept. They didn't clean or care for the property at all. I was nearly sick when I smelt the inside of the fridge. The carpets were ruined. They have lost their(our) entire deposit plus £1000. Frankly it could have been more.

Son s reaction? 'Not my fault, it was the others'. The evidence suggests otherwise whenever he is at home. He's now in a lovely flat with one other boy and I will be visiting often. I don't hold out a lot of hope. He's even got an ensuite shower with mosaic tiling ffs!

I dread next year when he finishes uni and comes back. I love him but cannot live with him. He is, like your son low on empathy. He takes things without asking the loses them (my iPod for instance), then says 'well you never used it'.

Moving him into the flat may help you because he's out of your hair but I would be extremely business like about it with all agreements in writing and signed. You need to be able to evict him if you have to. Sorry, I know that sounds awful. People in general don't always value things that are too freely given and my son is like this plus some!

Finally, just a thought, but if he's previously had dealings with the law it may be possible to get advice and support from the Youth Offending Team even now.

Sorry, also just read the flat is being sold...you may have a lot of problems with viewings if he continues to live like he does now. Could both affect the time it takes to seek and the sale price so do be careful.

Sooo hard, isn't it? I send very gentle hugs.

[medhandthekiddiesvtheworld]

please dont - SS and DH had a flat before they came here, rented to them by a friend of DHs at a minimal rent.

SS trashed the flat, which had just been decorated, there were drink marks up the wall, burn marks on the carpet, blimp marks (he was 14), the cooker was ruined.

If that flat has anything to do with your retirement, you are better off finding a flat and putting him in it.

Plus if he does mess up it will be almost imposible to get him out, you are better off paying rent for him than this, he has NO incentive to behave there anymore than he does at home, less in fact.