Who should you put first - your partner or your children?

[Notsoyummymummy1]

Put a lock on your bedroom door. Never let a child interrupt. Kiss your partner first. This guidance is in Andrew G Marshall's book, 'I Love You But You Always Put Me Last', which argues that parents need to childproof their relationships, or lose them - partners are for life but children are just passing through! Does anyone else think this completely unrealistic?! Incidentally he doesn't have kids himself!

I do agree with kissing partner first when coming through door - it sets dc to RESPECT the parents and their relationship. They need to see a healthy model of a loving r-ship to then develop thirs when they aer adult. If husband gets ignored by Mum, or parent don't show any affection to each other, dc would NOT learn, and will have problems later.
Of coursethe amount of time spent with kids as a mother and and as a family, should always be more than with P alone, while they are growing up.

I totally agree with TSC and Wordfactory.

'father gets ignored' and 'parents' not parent - sorry, typing on phone.

Here's a thing though. Wouldn't every parent say the love they feel for their children is unconditional? Is the love anyone feels for their partner also unconditional?

Makes you think doesn't it.

Would the answer change if the partner did something unforgivable?

Makes you think again....

Is there such a thing as "unconditional love" anyway? Isn't it like Altruism, it doesn't exist.

You're right though, it makes me think. Too much,

I think it's positively foolhardy for romantic love to be unconditional. It provides people with a charter to treat partners badly with no consequence.

If we're talking in the generic sense about this issue and not just about the merits of Andrew Marshall's ruminations, I agree wholeheartedly that men and women need to invest in their romantic relationships. But I still think that the emphasis sems to be mainly on what women should do to invest in their personal relationships. This supports a more generalised culture of women having the greater responsibility for personal relationships, whether that's with partners, children, friends or families of origin. This is sexist and needs challenging.

I quite agree that expectations of motherhood have changed and that there is far more judgement now about what makes a 'good mother' - often from fellow mothers. This culture of guilt and sentimentality has no doubt contributed to women who derive a disproportionate amount of their self-esteem from their children and their achievements.

But how about men who are disproportionately defined by work and the long hours culture? Or by their prowess at golf or gaming? Men who neglect their relationships with their partners and children, expect their wives to run social diaries and buy presents and cards for those men's relatives?

Where is the message to men that if they don't invest in their personal relationships, they run the risk of losing them?

Remember, the self-help book market is aimed at women, not men. So if those self-help books continue to peddle the message that women have the responsibility to keep personal relationships rewarding and fulfilling, but fails to address men's responsibilities, I want the readers to stop and reflect, asking:

"What about men and their responsibilities?"

Yes, we need to invest in our relationships but (a) that isn't purely women's responsibility (b) those aren't simply with our partners.

I think we fetishise our partner relationships ridiculously, actually. We neglect friendships, the web of other relationships that (sometimes literally, if you look at the health evidence) keep us alive and (should) fill our lives with joy.

It may well be that when my children leave home, their father and I find we don't have much in common. But there is no damn way I will have turned into his mother. And if we did split up, I'd be the one with a better social life

Oh, there are plenty of things I'm looking forward to when my children leave home. But More Couple Time isn't one of them - I want my life back!

TBH I think women are encouraged to neglect everything once DC come along. Work, hobbies, friendships, sexual relationships, you name it.

No matter what a woman gives up, along will come a bunch of other women telling them how ace they are and what A Good Mother.

It's all so utterly absurd!

I certainly think we're encouraged to neglect our friendships. It's very sad.

Not in France

I sometimes think though, that children get a bit sidelined in France.

Women there are encouraged to have large familes, work full time, enjoy fulfilling romatic lives and pay a lot of attention to their appearance.

They always seem to be spread rather thinly, no? And family life has to be fairly regimented to accommodate those tall orders?

It's like anything - when taken to extremes the DC lose out, just as when the English model of mothering is taken to extremes, the couple relationship tends to suffer.

And the fathering model? Or the husband model?

Again, there is too much focus on women and mothering - and not enough on men and fathering. Relationships and parenthood are joint responsibilities.

Hmm, English mothers are nothing like as smothering as Italian or East-European, in the past it was all very distant (and boarding schoolls still popular ), of course now in the UK it's all shifting due a big mix of nationalities, and the modern emotions-on-display culture.

French fathers are very involved with their DC - lots of non-French fathers where we live and they get put to shame!

French men shop for food and cook but they never do housework, however...

I think one can read the article/book and become annoyed about the gender politics, or you could try and take the lesson for both men and women that the husband-wife relationship shouldn't be downgraded when children come along.
Yes obviously the children have needs, and wants, and those have to be dealt with by both parents, but always prioritising children's needs or wants over a spouses needs or wants will damage the relationship between the adults.

For example, I used to travel for work a couple of days a week, quite often for two or three days at a time. When I got home, and saw my wife, we used to kiss and hug. Over time though that dropped off because every waking minute was about the children. Every morning it was 'let's take the kids to this place' or 'let's do that with the kids' - all the time. We were either doing stuff for the kids or we were asleep. And after a while the relationship suffered. We tried date nights and things, but ended up talking about schooling and nursery friends; we didn't have anything to talk about between the two of us anymore.

I suggested a romantic weekend in Paris but she was worried about being away from the children (5 & 3) for that long

And so when I got back from those work trips after a while, I looked forward to seeing the kids and I would nod at my wife, be grateful she'd looked after them while I was away, give her a break so I could look after them and she could relax etc. She became my co-parent, housemate and the mother of my kids. But not my best friend or lover. That bit died when we started prioritising the children over each other.

Bonsoir - interesting, my French DP does his share of housework but never cooks or does the shopping

Agree that mothers in France aren't expected to revolve so much around their children as in the UK though.

Lucky you!

Round here, it is the norm to have help in the house so cleaning and laundry are not done by either mothers or fathers as a rule.

Oh I wasn't asking about the French model particularly. I lived there and my experience was different to that quoted as regards domestic work, although I would agree that there isn't the same culture of fetishising motherhood as here. Other aspects were similar or worse though e.g. men's sexual needs trumping women's.

Bant I have to say that only a man would trivialise gender politics and urge women to 'take a lesson'.

You are still focusing on parenthood in your post, to the exclusion of other competing priorities on time and energy such as work, working away from home, long hours, absorbing hobbies and pastimes, care for dependent relatives, volunteering or friendships. There are also other time plunderers that are more obviously deleterious to relationships, such as addictions or obsessions.

Extreme motherhood isn't the only potential threat to a romantic relationship but focusing on that to the exclusion of other activities (many of which are pursued by proportionately more men than women) puts the responsibility for keeping romantic relationships fresh and vibrant back into women's domain, which is an unfairness.

In my experience, just as many women complain about workaholic, hobbyist men and their neglect of romance and fatherhood, as men complain about mothers who've forgotten how to be partners.

The gender politics are hugely relevant to this issue.

Bant - do you think your wife would agree with your post?

"Putting someone first" should always depend on the need, as well as who the person is.

No one person should always come first, no matter what the situation.

Asking "who should you put first" is the wrong question.

I completely understand Bant's post and don't see what there is to object to.