"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

I don't get the weight thing from my mother, but have been bullied into a haircut in the past (not quite sure how when I think back...she made me feel shit about myself and then presented it as treat, paying for me to have it done) and just before the deal breaking row she was on about how I should wear lipstick.
with my mother I think it's all about the control and the boundary blurring.

I don't understand why they do it.

Parents are supposed to nurture & protect their children.

Neither do I radio. I will never know.

I'm feeling really stressed. Getting chest pains and feel i cant breathe right. Even though I want to enjoy christmas and going to try to I still wish I could just jump into next year . Then wouldn't be all this from my mother.

She has been kicking off today. I've ignored her texts but she is not happy at all. She's making threats about me not seeing my younger sister, trying to dress it up. Younger sister doesn't want to see me if I'm not friends with mum basically. She bringing young one into it .sister text telling me off saying "NO one treats there mother that way. No matter what she's your mother" , it makes me sad and mad that she just can't see she's being manipulated by mum and can't see whats going on, I wish she'd wake up!
So then I have to just put up with her? Abusive or not because she's my "mother" according to my sister .
Gosh she makes me so edgy.

I think I'm going to come off Facebook as she's been ranting on there. And also I really NEED to change my phone. But that makes me mad why should I have to change my mobile number which is on contract and is used for work too. arghhhhh feeling really edgy and stressed.

Hi Bedtime,

I would suggest you remove yourself from FB altogether; its a fab tool for dysfunctional family members and narcissists. Disengage as of now, you can manage without bloody FB (which is regarded as passé now anyway). You really do not need FB in your life. If you do want to use it fully maximise your privacy settings.

Re the phone is it possible for the mobile network to block calls from her incoming number; this may be a solution.

You can block and delete them all.

Do it.

Can you see that they are terrified of you leaving them, because it would destroy their nasty little power triangle.

So they have to bully you back into your place.

By all means BE ANGRY about the fact you'll have to change your number, you shouldn't have to do this, but they are making it so.

Call your mobile provider, tell them you are receiving abusive messages and calls and can they give you a new number. They can do this for free. I called Orange/EE and they said they'd do it (first time) for nothing and could do it very quickly.

I'm still considering it.

Your mantra, and response to them whenever they rant and rave:

I won't accept bullying.

FB is a perfect platform for these people. A massive audience, sympathy on tap, easily manipulated, can still get information through to someone who has blocked you via other people you haven't blocked...it's perfect for them. The only thing they won't like is that if you delete your account - they will have to work harder, they loose that little bit of easy control.

Delete FB, I mean really delete it - not just suspend it. Full on, never able to get back on that account delete and just feel the weight lift off your sholders instantely.

Huge sympathies to you Bedtime.

I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. New phone, block on Facebook. Detach.

In regards to your younger sister, it's hard, but you really, really need to start looking after yourself before anyone else now. Your sister will either come around, or she won't, but she is NOT your responsibility to fix or care for.

That sounds harsh, but it's basically true.

It sounds from your posts that you're falling into two traps. One 'need to please' and another 'help everybody.' Trying to do both of these all the time will basically exhaust you. You know this; you're here due to the exhaustion already.

It feels terrifying to stop doing these things. I know; I've been there. That horrific terror of what might happen if you upset someone, the guilt and fear you feel if someone else falls into a hole you might have saved them from. It does feel horrible in the short term, but it does get better. You can't keep taking it all onto yourself. You're so tired already.

Here I am now just about to hit 40 wondering if I'll ever just be allowed to look after number one. But all that's really stopping me is myself. Unfortunately that's a huge hurdle for me at the moment.

Kikiliki, do you have any idea of some small steps you might be able to take? Something that might ease some of the feelings of drudgery for a bit? I'm just concerned that if it keeps going the way it has so far, you'll feel terribly resentful of it all.

Lookingthroughthefog This is me to a tee:
It sounds from your posts that you're falling into two traps. One 'need to please' and another 'help everybody.' Trying to do both of these all the time will basically exhaust you. You know this; you're here due to the exhaustion already.

It feels terrifying to stop doing these things. I know; I've been there. That horrific terror of what might happen if you upset someone, the guilt and fear you feel if someone else falls into a hole you might have saved them from. It does feel horrible in the short term, but it does get better. You can't keep taking it all onto yourself. You're so tired already.

Very astute analysis. i think a lot of us feel like this. I think i'm getting better, but it's hard work.

Good luck, Bedtime. Cut them off, detach..it's the only way.

goodtobetter may I ask, have you gone NC with your mother? has read your threads and reckon both you and your DH are long-suffering!

Very astute analysis.

Straight from my therapy to your ears. None of it's me.

On the other hand, perhaps it might be good to know you're not alone.

The third trap that I seem to have fallen into is terrified of upsetting someone. It's not quite the same as trying to please - that one is going outwards. Doing extra and so on. The fear of upsetting is a slightly different feeling, and you find yourself scrabbling about to achieve the impossible for fear of being shouted at.

And the other one is Angels and Demons. Everyone has to be one or the other, with nothing in between. Monsters terrify me. Everyone goes on a pedestal, and then I get hurt and confused and terrified if they fall off. The idea that my Mum might be complicit in my Dad's abuse send me into a terrifying spiral earlier in the year. I'm still not clear on my feelings of where things are with her now.

It's all tiring.

Alas, I'm not far enough into the therapy to advise anyone on how to get out of these traps. Sorry about that.

Hi bedtime sorry to hear you are getting no rest from the rigmoral that is the toxic's. Poor you, it seems that this time year brings out the worst in these people. Like you dh is never left alone

All in all she has only not contacted him for a total or one to two days!
On a positive note he opened up yesterday and asked me to listen to his voicemail as he couldn't face listening to it. Same shit, different day "please phone me son, bye" in a monotone miserable voice, the one that makes peeps feel sorry for her!!
I deleted it, as requested!

He still isn't ready to part with the phone contact though as they messaged back & forth last night, inwhich he did tell me about. So finally getting somewhere with honesty. Shame the last text said "when will you phone me & come & c me son"- i just hope he doesn't decide to visit her before Xmas as it brings the very worst out in him and never does him good. He just comes back miserable & put upon, either with diy or "woh is me" from mil & fil in regards to nc with dc

Every year is the same, i sit back and wait for him to fall into the trap
Let hope he makes it over xmas without feeling obliged to visit them.

Meerka ha ha...no. Am currently in ikea with her. She's behaving ok atm.

I think Pumpkin you are nearly there with DH trusting 'your way'.

You need to delete FB, and prevent her from getting to you, you also need to get DH to let you deal with his voicemail, and texts.

If he gets himself a new PAYG mobile for friends to contact him on, and leave his usual mobile at home. it will mean that you can look at the messages he gets, listen to the voicemails and if they are not of an urgent nature he doesn't need to hear/see them.

Would he go for that? What we are trying to inject here is for him to have some peace and quiet from his poisonous mother, so that he can breathe and think again.

Once he gains a little perspective, sees that the world doesn't come crashing down if he doesn't answer her, then he will be able to feel better and make better decisions.

You need to say to him that as his mother makes him so upset, he can't contemplate ruining your DC christmas by being grumpy, so therefore will only be able to consider seeing her AFTER christmas. yes there will be a ramping up of her pressure, but that with the system above, you can deal with that indirectly.

No reply is sent, no reaction to any of her messages, but he will know that he's not missing out on any real emergency.

then in time, he ought to be able to see that life IS better without her poison in it.

I've lurked for a long time but I thought I'd post now as I'm really struggling with being completely NC with my 'd'm.

After my dd was born I slowly started acknowledging how truly messed up my childhood was. I mean I always suspected it was far from ordinary but it took becoming a mother to really understand it, if that makes sense.

Growing up Dm would fly into a rage and would beat us with whatever was at hand for the most mundane of reasons. She has psychologically, emotionally and physically been abusive for as long as I can remember. She'd deliberately be vague and then react by hitting us for not properly following instructions. For example she'd say can you go upstairs and grab me the belt, it's in the closet. Only she wouldn't specify the type of belt or even the colour or which closet. I'd then spend 20 minutes looking for it knowing full well that I'd be beaten for either a) not finding said belt b) not finding it fast enough or c) finding the wrong one. I'd be crying before I'd even got to the top of the stairs. I was always seeking her approval and towed the line till i hit my teens and realised that no matter how hard i tried it would never be good enough. We'd not be allowed to have an opinion. And if we dared voice one we would be hit. Living at home, we trod on eggshells constantly and if one sibling had upset mum we instinctively knew to give her a wide berth as it often meant we would be next in the firing line.

As adults the dysfunctional relationship continues. And the fall out from our childhood is evident in each of us, albeit in different forms. We continue to be emotionally bullied into agreeing with her. Bullied into driving 7 hrs to visit with a newborn. She manipulates us and will often play us of against each other. Currently Db2 is the current golden child and she uses him as a go between. She still attempts to control our lives. She'll call 10+ times a day leaving voicemails, if you fail to answer the phone, she'll email too or contact you at work. Thankfully I live hours away or I am sure she would turn up unannounced.

In the past we've tried to broach the subject of how she treated us and she twists things, denies they ever happened and will justify her actions. "I did the best I could as a lone parent". " I brought you to this country" as if mentioning the bad made us ungrateful. Meanwhile she pretends she's the perfect mother to all who will bother listening. On family visits she'll demand we all attend her church where we and our children are paraded in front of her friends and the elders as some sort of prized trophies. She attempts to hug, kiss us, says she loves us, it just feels so alien and insincere as she never showed us affection as children. On the contrary, she told us often that we were the biggest mistake of her life and she wished she'd dumped us all. (We lived in a 3rd world country where orphans/ unwanted children would live on the streets, scavenging for bits at the rubbish dump)

I had managed to go NC since the summer but I've now been drawn into more family drama today. I have found it incredibly hard to be NC whilst my siblings continue to have contact. I feel so guilty for stopping contact but i have to remind myself daily of the reasons why. The longest NC period has been 3 years and I stupidly went got back in contact when i was pregnant with Dd hoping for some change in our relationship. My youngest Db also still lives at home so I often hear of the latest fight or incident. Thankfully he's more confident in who he is and seems to handle Dm ok, although i do worry about the long term implications on his mental health etc. Dm's current husband seems to be the one who bares the full brunt of Dm's anger now. How he has put up with it for so long, I don't know.

I'm just so fed up of wanting things to be different. Mourning the mother - daughter relationship I never had. Mourning the relationship my Dc will never have with their Gm. Mourning the extended family i'll never have. I'm full of self doubt, lack self esteem, i've suffered from anxiety, depression since my teens and yet I still yearn for my mother to love me, to approve of my life choices. I've often wished she would die at least then I'd truly be free of her.

So sorry to hear about what you have been through Lamu
Remember though, if you have managed 3 years non-contact, you can do it again! I'm sure life must have been much more pleasant then, than it is now.

Don't be fooled or cohersed by your siblings, she will be working her magic on them to make you feel guilty for something they are not powerful enough to do yet- which is walk away.

Hissy nearly there but not quite, he has a block feature on his phone, but will not use it and she has text again today, just random crap.

Pumpkin, blocking is too final a thing for him right now, which is why I say about the cheapo PAYG for mates etc and leave the other one switched off/at home.

I got a gushy christmas card today from dm with a cheque. I've put it with the cheque for the same amount from my dad, which won't get cashed until the lead up to next christmas, and I'll use it to buy my ds some presents, or else I will write DS a cheque for the amount of the 2 and put the money in his account.

Some good CAN come out of bad. :)

Funny how she hates giving cheques, and always says how tight and unthoughtful of my dad to give only £50. Yet here she is. ha ha ha I get bunged a cheque. If it's supposed to insult me, I don't care, I expect it all and worse from her, and whatever she does is her choice, says all about her and nowt about me.

Pumpkin likewise, I'd say either hike up the privacy settings on Facebook, or get him to set up a new FB account, not using his actual name, that he can use with friends only, then he can delete the old one or just deactivate/ignore it.

Hissy, just a note, I think cheques are only valid for 6 months. At least my bank won't accept them after that.

Ye, my father is rich and I get 50quid too, the stepkids get hundreds I'm pretty sure ;)

Utterly depressed this morning. Posted yesterday re my husband's unwillingness re housework etc and my ongoing frustrations and feelings that he doesn't respect me/ feels superior to me. I guess it didn't read very well as now everyone on here seems to think he is horrible. We had a big fight and he said that i am bullying him. He has said this before and i think it is true at times, but he does act as though he is more important at times too. I just seem to find it impossible to deal with things. I either go along saying nothing/ drop hints and moan/ get angry and start name calling/ accusations etc. in the past i have even lashed out at him, though i have worked hard at this and nipped it in the bud. How can i ever behave normally when i'm not even sure i know what normal is. I have been bullied/ unloved my whole life and i am pretty determined not to let that be true in the future, which can make me very angry/ defensive, or i feel that dh will only love me if i am nice and a 'good' wife. I tend to swing between the two and don't know what to do for the best. Things have been really good for months between me and my husband, mostly because i am not moaning about mum/ less stressed and angry in general/ being careful not to talk about my feelings too much/ my husband doing a few more bits round the house/ going out together socially a bit more. Then i just undo the hard work with one raging row. The next day i just feel awful and trapped, like there is no hope left and i will always be damaged goods cos i just don't know how to love/be loved.

MMM

I have not commented on your other thread, I will read it though.
Do you think that on some level you married someone who is a male version of how your mother thinks and behaves?. We after all learn about relationship first and foremost from our parents.

Hissy

Cheques are only valid for six months from date written on them, they cannot be deposited after that six months is up.