"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

This is the hardest time of the year for us, remember this and keep going!

I'm struggling generally, birthday doesn't help.

Fastforward a couple of weeks, we'll be in the clear!

Hi. She's been texting again today. She's losing weight at the moment. She's lost 2 stone so far . I have alot of weight to lose too and now she's about same size. She knows its a sensitive subject for me as I so want to lose weight. Anyway I think she competing with me and turning it into a competition .
After all what's happend over las few days and I've said not prepared to keep putting up with her behaviour etc and something has to change . She's ignoring that and sends random messages about Xmas presents and just all sorts when I've told her I don't want any and things have to change . Anyway back to the weight thing so she text me today saying are you a 12 as I am ordering something online . She knows full well I'm bigger than that . And. I never ask for clothes or tell people my size as I feel embarrassed etc as I'm over weight . It's a very touchy subject for me . Others might think her texts okay but I just felt there's a dig in there and trying to upset me. How I took it is she's competing with me and bothered about finding out my size so she can compare and feel good of she's smaller than me and then not only competing but trying to pick on my weakness . So I reacted angrily . Then she's making out now I'm being unreasonable as all she was doing was buying me a lovely gift for Xmas etc and now I look like not normal . But I read the text to my husband and he took it same way as me that there's hidden things behind it . Now she'll say I'm not nice to my younger sister ad she was doing such a nice thing etc, But given that I am upset about the past an d how she treats me now too and I've told her I don't want gifts and won't be meeting up then keep going on about what gifts etc is ignoring and dismissing how I feel and not addressing my pain .

Anyway now I'm questioning myself do you think she was digging and upsetting me etc or have I got it all wrong because of course she's saying how bad I am .

She's trying to hoover you back in. Do not allow this and ignore and delete any such messages.

Some toxic people will let you leave a relationship without caring one bit. They never really cared about you, and if you don’t want to be used and abused anymore, they’re simply on to the next person before you can say, “Bye!”

Others, however…others hoover.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
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•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Don’t Fall for Hoovering Tactics

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behavior. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honoured, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/when-toxic-people-start-hoovering#ixzz2nBgsPQxTsages.

It sounds like a dig to me. And both you and your husband think so.

Try, try to stay calm bedtime. An angry text gives her the fuel she so loves. You have told her you don't want anything and so, don't answer her texts. If she buys it anyway, give it to a charity shop. She will get angry - but she's going to do that the moment you stand up to her anyway. Choose how and where you allow her to be angry. You know it'll happen; but you can pick the battleground here.

She has to respect you. You have to act in such a way that she -must- respect you and know that you will not be pushed.

... Or what atilla says. Ignore all contact. Change your number / call block her.

I don't like going bk over past too much and analysing everything as sometimes I could be wrong . But a few years ago she bought me a night dress from accessorise . It was obvious it was too small and I said well when I lose weight it will fit. Anyway I ended up giving it to my younger sister as it was no where near me. More like a 10. Looking bk was that just a mistake or did she do that deliberately. ? I opened it Infront of everyone at her house as that's what we normally do Xmas day . You see you could analyse everything and it gets upsetting .
Also i remember through my childhood there was always a preoccupation with weight. I remember always questioning wether I was fat but I remember mum used to compare me and my older sister in size . She once said you used to be smaller and really thin and now older sister is smaller . I'm not sure wether I asked her who was thinner but then she liked to Instill these competitiveness between me and sister which meant causing jealousies . My sister does often act jealous towards me. But would u say to teenagers that one was fatter or try and Instill a sense of we are both lovely no matter what size .

Also I had to go on medication for anxiety when I was 19 as I was that bad with panic attacks , and anxiety and agoraphobic type tendencies like hissy said . Anyway they made me put on weight the tablets and she moved us all around when she split up with my dad. My dad cut us off for 4 years and my mum moved us 30 mins away from where we used to live with a boyfriend she had only known for a few months. He moved in with us 3 girls. Now when I started putting on weight . She got him who I didn't even know to have a talk with me in my room about my weight . He came in my room and said your mums worried about your weight problems. I mean this guy was about 20 stone or more and he looked very big and he was saying your mum doesn't want you to put on weight like me because it has affected my life so much. In other words might look like him. Why would she not speak to me herself? This man who had been in our lives a few months ? She never had any thought for us either she moved him in and he could have been anyone . My younger sister was only about 7 .

msvee Im sure you are welcome here! sorry, missed your post :(

bedtime, it sounds like she loved (and loves) playing your sister and you off agaisnt each other :(

Also I remember going to slimming world with her and I was only 8 half stone.

Yes meerka that's it this is how she is and also manipulates everything . She lies then denies it. She's caused the biggest trouble between my older sister and me with the younger 1 who still lives at home. The younger one is always being funny with us both and mum of course denies any wrongdoing. Her own brother doesn't see her . She didn't get to go to his sons wedding because he thought she might cause an argument . My uncle only has her left on his side of family and he doesn't see her. You see she lives causing bother and that is what I cannot put up with anymore. Drama .

sad that she's that way :/ give yourself time to mourn the absence of the mum you should have had.

But it does sound like Attilla's advice is approrpriate, sadly.

I'm almost relieved you have mentioned about weight.

My mother would always start her called with "Have you put any weight on? What size are you now?"

I did complain to her about it but all I got was "My mum did it to me, so how do you think that made me feel?" Err...the same you are making me feel?

Then she sends me clothes (she never sends anything), one in a size 18 and the other in a size 22.

It's stupid little things like that, that just chip, chip, chip away.

What do they think they are going to gain by doing this? I don't understand it.

Thanks Attila . Everything you say rings home. It's very painful I know I'm enabling her by responding to her. Sometimes I just feel compelled to reply . Particularly when she's denying things that have happened and denying me my hurt. Like ". Get over it" past is past. Really no it's in the present mother .

Farrow - yes it's the chipping away and it's hard to define and remember everything sometimes it's little things but still hurtful that all mounts up to feeling such anger towards her.

It's impossible to remember everything as some of it is so subltle. I've got a horrible feeling I will be remembering little things for years to come, not just from her but other people too.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with your mother bedtime and i think your fears are pretty much founded. However subtle it may seem she is trying to chip away at your inner self and compete in some sort of diet battle that she wants to win.

Attilla very interesting post about hoovering and really sums up the tricks the hoovering type of toxics use. Each bullet point, bar from one my mil has tried herself.
Normal people back-off when we sever relationships/friendships, toxics of this type do not.

My mum also projected about weight issues... Sadly i only realised this years after developing an eating disorder... She is size 20-22 and would give me her old clothes for when i grew onto them (i was a size 6-8 at the time), and almost every visit she would have a dig about my weight.

My entire life my father told me I was fat, I remembered photo after photo cringing at my size.

Imagine my sadness when, after DS was born, I looked back on my family photos and realised that I wasn't fat at all.

I am now sadly, but hoping to do something about that next year. Flaming mirena coil's not helped, hoping that now that's gone, i'll be more in control of my hunger.

I have to want to do it for me.

After the abusive relationship ended, I think being fat was a good defense mechanism, but enough now. I need to be proud of myself, I need to be fit, healthy and well. I'm all my ds has. If anything happens to me, he'd go to my family, or an abusive male living in a shitty misogynist culture.

Thanks All . Yes I am fat now but when dad used to call me names like "fat bessy" and mimic me then I was only 16 and 8 stone Now I'm fat and when my dad cut me off for years because he divorced my mum and took that out on us when we did meet up again I was fat and he looked at me with disgust and he said well you look different . Well I probably did but no need to make me feel so uncomfortable and bad about myself.
Also when I was I car with him on the way back I had a panic attack and had to stop off somewhere I still suffer all this now too but not on tablets at the moment . Well he never supported me. He just said things like well if your going to be like this then I'm not coming out with you again. I was like what having a panic attack ? Like I really wanted to do that

Also I struggle with agrophobia and find it hard to go out. I do but it's not easy. Anyway on one of his abusive nights on the phone . He taunted me about not being able to go out . He said " at least I can go out of the house" and you have a boring life unlike him of course. You know using your weaknesses is damn right cruel considering they both know I've seen counsellors and had tablets before.

Well done hissy ! You can do it! You really can. I think it's the abuse that creates this . You know thinking your not good enough. In security's. low confidence . I think sub consciously what goes on with is I feel I'm not worthy of a happy life like everyone's more important than me . That's how my patents made me feel and that I had to take responsibility for them. So that goes hand in hand with never focusing on my life .

Being fat makes you invisible, removes the 'threat', as you say, it excludes you from competing in life.

So you watch from the sidelines.

My dad 'insulted' me my entire childhood. My mum said nothing.

Plus ça change. :(

I just have to be that little bit braver, and get myself back into real life, and release myself from the fears in my head.

Hello,

I have been reading through this thread, I have often seen the thread title & haven't been brave enough to read until now.

The talk of weight issues triggered an odd memory. I've had issues with food, hated eating in front of people. Many years ago I went to a restaurant with my parents, I started choking on my food (really, properly choking, I was struggling to breathe), anyway ... I eventually recovered. But all the while it was happening my mum was telling me to be quiet. She wasn't at all concerned about me, no offer to help. She was embarrassed. i was bloody MORTIFIED.

I'm not sure why I wrote that down. I'm just beginning to realise a lot of things about my life. I'm 42 (!?)
I thought it was all my fault (the lack of self worth, never feeling I'm good enough, the eating disorder (no matter how skinny I got, she still wasn't happy with me), past suicide attempts, drinking too much etc. etc), but reading this thread, I'm not so sure that it is...

My mum told me I was too thin. I wasn't . She prefers me when I am fat. Weird the things they pick on.

Growing up as the eldest, I was expected to look after my parents and younger sisters, and keep them happy. My baby sister even called me mum when she was tired.

My middle sister could do no wrong. If she got caught being naughty then I was punished for leading her astray. I was the bad one when we were very little. Dad even used to refer to me as the barstard. I was born when dad was still married to his first wife though I didn't realise that this was probably what he meant until I was grown up.

I got beaten up a lot by dad. It was my fault supposedly and I would be expected to comfort my parents afterwards. I wasn't allowed to be ill, or have needs. I was repeatedly told not to compete with them.

My mum would dump all her problems on me. She's a very pessimistic person and prone to ruminate. She still tries to push all her problems onto me now.

I cooked, did paperwork/ invoicing, worked in the family business in the evenings after school. And I was expected to get straight As, win prizes, play in 2 orchestras, etc. and I did except they then when we were a bit older would punish my middle sister in front of me for not being as bright.

I now work full time and look after my middle sisters kids (she died 5 years ago). I married a guy who wants me to baby him.

Here I am now just about to hit 40 wondering if I'll ever just be allowed to look after number one. But all that's really stopping me is myself. Unfortunately that's a huge hurdle for me at the moment.

I've been consistently told I'm too fat. Even when I was an 8/10. After I lost all my pregnancy weight (2.5stone) I challenged my mum on it, saying I didn't think being a 10/12 was fat in my 40's and after having 2 children.

She moved on to my hair. Its too grey apparently. Littered with grey hair according to her. I'll never just be allowed to be.