"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Bedtime - i agree with Hissy, change your number. I got a new mobile no as soon as i went NC, so i know that this number is 'safe'. We still have the same landline but i found that hard at first. I would get home from work and check the answer phone with dread. I hated the thought of hearing her voice. I think it is easy to underestimate how much better you would feel with a 'safe' phone - knowing you will not hear that voice, or a torrent of abuse. If that is too scary at the moment, do as someone suggested earlier - keep your current phone for now, but just get a cheap new one to use until you feel ready for that next step.

And, if it makes you feel better, i think a lot of what your husband is feeling makes sense. He must really love you. My husband has expressed similar frustrations in the past too. Could you explain to him that it is not about her wasting more of your life/ time, but that you are working through things in order to move on with your life and enjoy the future with him. Perhaps set some regular time aside to talk about some of your pain / fears, but also make time for lots of fun things too, so he can see that you are working towards a positive future?

Molly I wrote a long post back and my battery died.i understand all of what you've said. How can a parent make there own child feel like they don't mind losing them? My parents have made me feel same. Hurts like mad particularly the one your closer too.
Thanks for replying . I just hope that one day I will feel secure because write now I'm questioning many things. I saw a post on here before saying sometimes you can end up choosiyours spouse like your parents were narcisttic etc and will this end up being true? When I'm clearer in my mind and more secure and confident etc.

Meerka - I think I push people away because Im suspicious as I find it so hard to trust as I've been so let down with them. Knowing things then using it to hurt me. They know no boundaries. Picking on weaknesses.
I hope i can learn to trust, I'm even suspicious of my own husband. Like does he want the best for me will he hurt me . And friendships I push them away too.

Bedtime - that's exactly it! The hurt was awful in the beginning. I started off saying it's his loss etc but i didn't really believe it - the rejection is too strong. However, i guess the two things that helped me most were that i thought long and hard before actually going NC, and that i kept myself very busy for those first couple of months. I actually taught myself to sew and found i loved it, would spend ages looking for project ideas on Pinterest or online blogs. I decided that i really needed to start living my life, but accepted i had spent so long dancing to other people's tunes that i didn't really know who i was or what i liked, so i tried lots of things to find out.

If you can keep yourself busy and do things you enjoy after going NC, it helps distract you from the endless questions, doubt, and upset that you feel. At the beginning, it felt more like going through the motions but with time it begins to become more enjoyable and the hurt lessens. Things to keep your mind occupied are particularly good eg crosswords, puzzles, learning something new.

I still feel let down and abandoned by my dad but whilst i don't agree with his actions i think i understand them more than i did and it doesn't feel like bravado now when i say if that is how he feels i don't want him in my life. Just stopping the abuse by going NC is a step towards repairing our own self esteem. Hopefully you too will learn to believe that you only deserve people in your life who truly love you and are ready to fight your corner when needed.

Bedtime - i also push friends away so i have no advice on that one. Making and keeping friends is something i have always struggled with and i guess a lot of that is to do with my childhood. Fwiw your husband sounds nice, he seems to genuinely care for you. Not making excuses for him but it sounds like he just doesn't know how to handle things

I know exactly what you mean about trusting people too, Bedtime. it's something I'm struggling to really understand and come to terms with too. Seems I tend to see new people with a mindset that they can't be trusted and to be wary of them, and it seems to go deep. I know in my head it's not necessarily the case but it's not something you can just switch off.

You come to terms with one aspect of the poisoned legacy they leave behind, and then you just have to face the next don't you

Ditto, I see new people, but feel that they'll not want to bother with me really, so don't push it. Don't invite much either.

Fear of rejection etc.

Team this with nagging agoraphobic tendencies, I have nothing.

I always feel alone. Friendless.

I'm nobody's best friend, but I have people I adore as my best friends.

Shame none of them live in the same country as me!

It's the not good enough mantle isn't it?

I am proper sad and sorry for myself tonight. So unfair, so angry at this and I can't tell anyone really.

I have just created a text saying " I do not want anymore contact with you. Do not contact me or my family" .......Why cant I press send????

just sent it.

Couldn't 6orward that SMS onto a few numbers for me could you? :)

Well done chuck! How'd you feel?

Remember all your feelings are valid.

Hissy, thanks...feeling good....liberated. I will have to talk to the kids at some point, but just enjoying the first time in my life I am actually free from her!

For anyone getting upsetting texts but reluctant to ditch the phone number altogether - when I last got a new phone contract I wanted to save the old phone for various reasons, and they converted it to PAYG for me but my main phone is a new one. If you / your partners did that, it's a way of keeping a channel open for contact but one that you don't have to look at day in day out. I just keep mine in a drawer, for instance.

Can I rudely jump in?

I'm semi-n/c with my dad, and have been for a while. The semi n/c is based on the fact that I've never told him not to contact me. I will nod and smile politely if I see him in the street, but I won't let him in, I won't share any details with him etc. Fortunately, he doesn't actually give a shit, so since (I think I last posted here) in March about him whining that I need to go and see dying Granny (still alive, for the record), I've said precisely 2 words to him, and that was at my brother's wedding.

I binned my birthday card from him and though I felt guilty for half a day, that was short lived.

The thing I wanted to ask about is the anger.

At the moment, I'm in long term therapy. We've spent the past four sessions talking about my past in depth, and trying to map patterns and the like. Yesterday the therapist raised something that I had simply not noticed before. All my rage has started up since I stopped talking to my dad.

Prior, when he was generally allowed in a little bit, I didn't have this rage problem. Even when he'd done something that made me angry, I was angry with him briefly, and then got over it. Since not talking to him, I'm enraged regularly. It's almost all misplaced. A good 90% of it is aimed at me, even if the anger trigger is external. So, if someone at work pisses me off, I'll be angry, then enraged, then shaking with rage, then it'll all reflect back on me, and I'm attacking myself verbally and then physically.

I just wondered, has anyone else experienced this? Since cutting the person out, the feelings of upset and anger seem to get worse, and seem to be everywhere rather than just on the narc person?

Like I say, I am working hard in the therapy, and we're very focussed on my dad, so I'm hoping this will be resolved. I just had a bit of a 'holy fuck - I hadn't noticed that...' when she picked up the connection.

Looking I am sure someone will be along shortly with some experience in anger issues. Well done for going to therapy though, as i'm sure it helps a great deal. Maybe you are angry because your dad shows no interest? Whereas when you let him in, it masked the fact he wasn't interested as you were the one chasing him.

MillyMollyMandy You have done so well to have come this far. You did the right thing in not sending a card to her. Re pushing people away, i think it's a protective blanket people put up, preventing yourself from being hurt by others.

meerka re guilt toxics feel- I don't think all toxics feel guilt, and the few that do, maniefest it by making others feel guilty for the problems they themselves created.

Hissy In answer to "what did i do to deserve these people"- You did absolutely nothing to deserve this treatment, you were simply born to a family that unfortunetly doesn't know how properly to treat their child or chooses to cause you anguish.
As for sending the gifts back last year, well done!!
Re: building bridges in relation to sending you a card ds would open, i agree wholeheartidly if the intention was there to build bridges there are many better ways to go about it! Poor attempt if you ask me. Very much like mil when she harps on about how she can't see the dc. She was given chances and options many a time and blew each and everyone and since this her attempt at building bridges is to harrass me via fb or dh daily by text. A real attempt at building bridges would have been a letter or proper communication when still in contact! Then i could have chosen to refuse or accept, but more than a year has gone by and if the above are seen to be attempts she deserves to fuck of imo!

Bedtime Sorry to hear you are having problems with your dh. It's a shame he doesn't see it from my pov, atleast you talk to him about everything rather than stewing away like my dh does. My dh doesn't talk to me, he just goes off into his own little world and then snaps at everyone around him as though it's our fault.
If you find comfort in spilling it all out i think that is really good, such a shame instead of listening he chooses to behave the way he does.
What does he expect you to do if you cannot talk to him?

Singarainbow Welldone and hurrah for sending that text! Good on you girl, it's nice to hear someone is taking it upon themselves to show a stand against these toxics. So positive Keep at it!

As for me, dh came back last night from his walk refreshed and said we should swap phones. Not possible as i have too much stuff i need on mine and midwife, school, hv, and school nursing team aswell as many others regularly us my number so don't want to faff about having to do that, and tbh don't want his parents hassling me when they can't get to him.
But i had a good look at his phone and it seems he has an individual blocking feature so said he should use that. I must admit he wasn't too keen and he said the guilt would be too much completely, so i said maybe when he is working he could block their calls as she really shouldn't be contacting him whilst he is working.

I think one of the major hurdles for him now is getting over the guilt, and i guess from reading threads on here he will always have it but it obviously must diminish to a certain degree with time.

It is something i accept this time of year, but when he snaps at us i won't stand for it as he has more appropriate ways of managing his feelings open to him, such as talking to me, going for a walk or seeing a therapist - that one aint on the cards unfortunetly.

What i don't understand is why these toxics think Christmas makes them the Arch Angel Of Gabriel and gives them some sort of rights to destroy goodtimes in the hope they can get their own way! Pure selfishness is innerbuilt and christmas always shows the true colours of such individuals. It's rather like "a dog isn't just for christmas, it's for life"- a child is the same, they cannot expect all the good at christmas when they have treated their child like shit all year round!

Millymollymandy your post is really helpful . Thank you.

Pumpkin, get your H a cheapo mobile phone. A new number, that he can give to everyone if they can't get him on the other number

The other one stays at home, so he gets to control who has access to him.

When I say everyone I mean everyone he wants to speak to.

He's getting there, well done for helping him to do this!

Thanks all for Thursday night. It has helped me I'm not quite as angry today.

Pumpkin- I often talk to him and to be fair he does hear a lot about it and it must be hard for him too as its everyday. It's a shame your husband will not open up. Is that a man thing maybe? I suppose we all handle it differently. I'm more of a talker.

I was going to mention that. Yes I get that rage. Really angry and mad. I am okay today. I think the more I start to see it is them at fault mum and dad and not me the more I feel less angry. I didn't realise where it came from. I have been tied up in knots for a long time and angry at everyone. It's starting to subside when I remind myself that it's not me and the reasons why it's not me and that it's up to them to change or stay as they are but not have me around if they can't be nice. Taking control feels better, which is what I'm trying to do now and stick to it, I just feel at the moment like I'm not going to be a push over anymore and that I am aloud to enjoy my life and be happy with or without them. I've felt frozen and empty for a long time, like times stood still, like I have been waiting for them to change and as though I couldn't live my life without them , as though I'm waiting for permission for them to say go and get on and be happy. I don't need them. I keep trying to remind myself that I don't need them. That I'm okay on my own that I can cope .

Is doubting yourself all part of the process?

I still haven't heard a thing from my mum. Its been over 2 months now. In this time she has moved house. I have no idea where she is living. Could be UK could be in Spain. I lasttried to get in touch with her at the beginning of November when I text asking her if she was going to come and see my dd for her birthday, how was she, where was she living etc. She ignored the text but did send a text on dd birthday saying "hope xxxx has a nice day". That was it. Nothing since from either of us.

I posted my own thread and here and the advice was unanimous. Stop contact and get on with my life. Trouble is I'm really struggling. I keep thinking perhaps I should have chased her more. Its what she wants. She wants me to almost beg for her to see us but I was feeling brave and strengthened by the support here to stop this cycle. But I'm floundering again. Feeling bad for the children. They literally have no extended family as my exh family don't bother with them at all either.

Trouble is, even if I do contact her what the heck do I say after 2+ months. Its clear she doesn't want contact isn't it? Except she will be telling everyone what a terrible daughter I am. Selfish and how I never bother getting in touch etc. I know her games. She will oh so conveniently miss out the information that I've tried to get in touch. She won't own uo that she has completely ignored my texts.

Sorry for offloading. Just feeling weak, sad and vulnerable again .

Hi scottybeammeup

I think what you are feeling is not at all unusual in the slightest. Fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies left by such toxic godawful parents. They also make for being deplorable grandparents so you are doing really well not to have her in any aspect of your children's lives now. They do not need her and you do not need her approval any more either, not that she ever freely gave that anyway. Toxic grandparents do immense harm to their grandchildren. It sounds like you are currently hung up on the obligation aspect. All she is missing from you though is narc supply; you were trained by her to put her first. Narc mothers and their willing male enabler of an H make for being particularly bad parents.

I would not contact her at all because it will just re-open old wounds. Such people as well like your mother are masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again". They also like having the last word.

It is also not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist (I should know, having got three of them and I maintain as little contact as humanely possible with my ILs because they are both narcissistic. I certainly do not go to their house on my own and actively stay away from their disordered lives. I do not want anything from them and I tell them absolutely nothing about my own life. I also protect my son from them and tell them nothing about him either).

I posted this to you originally as well:-

"It's painful to watch a narcissist "interact" with their grandchild. Mostly because there's not much interaction. And what little there is is so brief and shallow that it hardly rates as a true encounter. More like a hit and run. Not only do you feel bad that your poor kid doesn't have a real grandparent and is missing out on such a special relationship, you can't help but be reminded that's exactly what you had to deal with for most of your life"

Concentrate on your own self and children and surround yourself with positive role models. You can strike out on your own without this horrid woman and reclaim your own life.

Rainbow - well done on sending the text. If you can stay strong in the first few weeks it will get easier with time.

Spanky - glad you found my post helpful

I'm down today. I couldn't sleep last night. Think I'm weary and just feeling tired and drained. Am I doing the right thing? Emotions can just turn in an instance

It feels like I'm in a battle to stay strong. Feel on edge because of it. Need to relax .

Hi ladies , can I join this club ?