Counselling nightmare (& lundy bancroft's book)

[Heather2013]

I posted a week or two ago about a tough situation with my partner. We've been going to counselling for about 4 months. Counsellor believes him that I am over-powering, constantly nagging him and dictating to him (gross exagerration / lies). She says that his opinion is as true as my opinion, or else i am disrespecting him. Anyway, I have been asked to modify the way I ask him to help, which I have done well, and have found that rather than him responding enthusiastically, he nit-picks everything i say. EG: me: "Are you ok?" him: "I know what you mean by that", me: "Can you put baby's bib on please?" (after he didn't do it first time) him: "you don't have repeat yourself, i'm going to do it" me"sorry, I thought you'd forgotton" him "too late, the damage is done".
The counsellor cross-examines me, and makes me feel stupid (told me to look up "disrespectful" and "hurtful" in the dictionary because I thought they were more or less the same.)
I was too scared to mention Lundy Bancroft's book because she is such a clever clogs and I know she will tear me to shreds. When I showed the book to partner his reply was that I am the female version of that, and that he could pick up "Mein Kampf" and say it was true.
This counselling was the last chance saloon and although I don't blame her personally, because of the style of counselling our relationship is now properly hitting the wall. I didn't think there was domestic abuse to start with, but then it came up because of the angry violent episodes during which partner has put fist through wall, thrown numerous pieces of crockery and lashed out at anything and everything. Immediately after he did these things, he comes to me (still angry) and says he is sorry for doing that but i have to take responsibility for making him do it by provoking him. I didn't feel I wanted to apologise under these terms, and was always so upset at the damage that I didn't see how it was my fault. The counsellors only response to the domestic abuse situation is that we have to consider if there is a future in the relationship. She's right about that, but at no point has she confirmed to partner that it is well out of order to be violent, aggressive, frequently angry and demanding. He thinks he is a top guy, all loving and caring, and that I am a mental controlling B*tch.!
Mumsnetters replied to my last post by saying to stop going to the counsellor, and i totally admire the forthright decisiveness you guys have. I felt if I said I wasn't going back to her - well it just looks like I don't like what she's saying and am a bad loser. I thought it would get better. I thought she would stop focusing on me and start working on his anger. I honestly can't believe that in this day and age these practices are legitimate!
After reading Lundy Bancroft's book, it rings so many bells. I can't go back now, to apologising for his angry outbursts.
Partner is now packing bags. How do I explain to 3 year old. her birthday next week and I am a mess. Please help but please be gentle.

Tell him to cancel autoglass on Wednesday. He's no longer there.

Better yet, call them yourself with the reg and cancel it.

That's a good point, thanks. And I have told her that a few times, after the homework for me to be more polite (he was horrid), after the "safety plan" session, he was getting really angry and ignoring / denying / refusing to leave according to the plan, making me very anxious. And after advising me about "throwaway remarks" (instead of "nagging" him), I said he was being unfairly critical - and she said it was up to me to qualify what I was saying - because he had "misinterpreted" me asking him "are you ok?". I mean, how much am I supposed to grovel? So every time I've told her he is worse, or abusing his power (that she has given him by agreeing that I am "dictatorial"), she has responded by making me feel I did something wrong and he was right to get offended.

Once or twice I've seen on here that a poster's narcissistic ex or toxic mother is a psychologist or a counsellor or a social worker... I think sometimes people of that sort gravitate towards professions where they can dig into other people's psyches and interfere with the course of their lives. They may even believe they are doing it for the best of motives, but the net result can be devastating for vulnerable clients (and we're all vulnerable to an extent when we go to counselling - that's what we're there for). Not saying your counsellor is necessarily one of those, she could just be very blinkered, but her talking about herself a lot does sort of indicate that she might be. Counselling isn't supposed to be about her, it's supposed to be about the two unique individuals she is there to help. Notwithstanding her qualifications and experience, that is totally unprofessional.

As for partner leaving, it sounds suspiciously as if he isn't really leaving as such, he's just withdrawing to give you time to miss him. If that doesn't work, be prepared for increasingly worrying attempts to get back in. I hope I am wrong.

... fair point about Autoglass, that's a pretty transparent excuse to get in your face. He's got five whole days to tell them to meet him at his parents' house instead. He doesn't have to tell them why!

Heather, this sounds just like my life, although my counsellor was definitely more sympathetic to me. Well, she couldn't really ignore some of the things dh said that made his attitude blatantly obvious!
I bought the same book 2 weeks ago and also had to hide it. Was sort of a relief to see I wasnt imagining things but also v sad that I'm unlikely to ever see the interesting, sharing man I married ever again.

My dilemma now is when to actually call time. I will be starting a v stressful and demanding new job in a couple of weeks (which I took partly because it is so close to home and I've spent past 3 yrs commuting 2 hrs a day). I don't think I can manage a divorce and house move on top of this. But if I don't, he could make a stressful change even more stressful.
What to do?

Well obviously I'm not the best person to say!!
How did your counsellor pick up your husband's attitude? I have been shocked at the things which i think are downright out of order, which she just totally ignored.
For my situation, I've already been through so much already that I can take my time deciding. If it weren't for the counselling bringing things to a head (ie making the situation ten times worse and making my manners the main focus of the relationship) then I daresay things would have rumbled on with good spells interrupted by massive barneys. Now I'm being constantly berated and bullied (told that the whole world sees me as extremely rude) and it is intolerable, but that is thanks to the counselling.
Now I am at the point of considering leaving the door open in the future if partner is willing to go to something for abusive men (though I'm scared that will shaft me like the counselling did). Someone said that guys like that won't change because they are too lazy and that seems very true (this bloke is sooo lazy - it disgusts me. Not at all like I was expecting a partner /father to be.) I've got a bit of information about the Freedom programme, but don't know how good it will be (I've lost faith in other people helping me, except mumsnet!). Is it based on or very similar to Lundy Bancroft? But anyway, the motivation would have to come from him, wouldn't it? He would have to be proactive in finding out about it and care enough to go through with it. But judging by his reaction to seeing the book - I think him recognising he is abusive is a very long way off.
What can he do to make starting the job difficult? I think it is unlikely you can move out in a couple of weeks. Do you have children? If you don't then I think the decision is a little bit easier - you can more easily cut all ties with him and you will probably be able to meet someone new more easily. I'd like to message with you to swap notes!

My dh is SO convinced there is nothing wrong with his behaviour he made no effort to "edit" what he said or how he said it in front of her. She watched him ridicule me (and, in fairness, called him up on it) and heard him say how unimportant my needs were to him (as in "why would what she wants to do even matter to me?) So counsellor couldn't really ignore. But... she didnt judge, which has made him feel vindicated in his behaviour. The most he'll concede now is that "we're obviously not compatible" which lets him off any responsibility for his behaviour.

Would love to msg you. Am pretty new on mumsnet - how do you send msgs?! (No, new job is not in IT!)

What has happened to you is EXACTLY why reputable counsellors DON'T counsel where abuse is present.

This is indeed why you may have been told on previous threads to never even consider therapy with him.

You see how you are even weaker now than when you started? That's why.

I told my Ex that he was so awful that they wrote BOOKS about how to deal with him, while pointing at the Lundy book. Made FA difference, but a good 4 years on, 2 of which where he's been back under his revolting little rock and I have been growing and healing, NOW he sees how wrong he was.

Not that I would EVER allow him so much as a ghost of a chance with me, and told him that clearly, but I do think that he has had an epiphany of sorts. Lundy says it's possible, when they lose it all, when they see what they have lost as a result of how they behaved...

Cancel the Autoglass, it's only to have an excuse to come by, and you don't need that. Cancel it and tell him that he will have to rebook at his parents.

Meanwhile, stop counselling and report that idiot to wherever you can, she's a liability and a danger to abuse victims.

The Freedom Programme is run by an organisation similar to Women's Aid - run by women who have decades of experience helping women out of abusive relationships and helping them change their ideas and attitudes about themselves & relationships from unhealthy ones to healthy ones.

Bancroft is a man who runs abuse programs for abusive men and has years of experience seeing abusive men change, not change, justify, excuse, complain, emote. There will be some crossover, but it's coming at it from a totally different angle. I would definitely go for it.

Have you got to the part in the Lundy book where it talks about the abusive man in counselling?

Personally I would not leave the door open even if he gets help. However, you don't have to decide this now. Have some real space from him, do the freedom programme (if you want to) and reassess in a year or so.

It can take a lot of time to sort out finances. I wouldn't bank on wing able to appease him for all that time.

I'm sorry the counselling has been so bad, and agree with others that it's good if he goes. He sounds abusive and unrepentant! Hope you're able to make plans for a proper separation.

Don't agree to any "talks". If he's anything like my abusive ex, he'll be full of platitudes and flattery to try to win you back. Unfortunately I didn't realise this at the time and gave him another chance, and therefore the opportunity to behave even more appallingly. A fortnight later he was gone for good.

Definitely cancel the Autoglass. My ex sent me texts inviting me round to his new place for dinner or some drinks, but I told him to get fucked because I knew it was just a ruse. He was a prize arsehole, not quite as bad as yours, but not far off.

Congratulations on getting rid. I laugh now when I think of the times my ex said "we're not on the same wavelength". He knew it panicked me and I'd do all I could to appease him. Now I realise that he must have been some sort of alien being because nobody in their right mind would have been on his wavelength.

But it's so hard to say no, I won't talk to you! But I know he thinks that I will miss him (ha ha) and won't want to face the future without him! And I know, even if we had a break for ten years, he would l still be saying the same thing... that I need to take responsibility for provoking him and all the other plausible crap, like "no ones ever said I was abusive before", (well there's a first time for everything).
It's just so hard to draw that line under it. So hard to give up the little fantasy. So hard to decide that he will just never care enough to repair the damage done. It would be so easy for him to see things from my point of view but he just won't!

And that's the frustrating thing, isn't it? Because they refuse to properly look at their behaviour, everybody loses their home; everybody suffers. My dh is choosing to destroy our family yet I know he would NEVER behave in this way at work because his employees (he owns a company) would make complaints and ultimately walk out. How ironic that he CHOOSES to protect himself in the workplace as he recognises the authority of employment law (ie if you raise a fist to an employee they WILL take you to a tribunal and win), yet he feels perfectly happy to behave like this at home because "I make him"/"I deserve it"/"I need to know that my shouting at him is unacceptable to him".

My all time favourite is an email he sent me 3 days after I took my ds to stay with my parents in order to escape some particularly vile behaviour. Having spent 2 paragraphs explaining why he had no choice but to behave as he had done he wrote:
"Now that I have said my piece, you are more than welcome to respond, although I don't think it will make any difference as the above is all fact in my opinion".

Even when I pointed out that it doesnt even work as a sentence as it is a blatant oxymoron, he still couldn't get his head round the idea that his opinion is only his opinion...

Truly frightening.

babe, go to coinselling on your OWN. this will help give you some clarity and strength

you will have seen/read what Lundy thinks about shared counselling!

I would also dob counsellor in too

heather

I also read Lundy, and started counselling solo

I am now in 2 minds as to whether DP is abusive, or has some major self esteem issues and takes them out on me!!!

its really helping. BUT situation is the same!!!!

there is no easy answer when you hae kids/work etc

but look after YOU, stay strong and have hope

and PLEASE dob counsellor in. this is a such an issue in our society and they have made things even worse!!

YvyB - Yeah, mind bogglingly frustrating. that's exactly how I feel let down by the counselling. She takes his opinion as the truth (she has said that), but i believe he is lying, and she says it is disrespectful of me to say that his opinion is not valid. And my opinion, well she picks and pokes at it and basically ignores it. It would only work if our opinions were compatible and I didn't think he was lying to make himself look good. (Like if he says I'm still nagging him after weeks of being conscious to ask him to help using only the words recommended by counsellor, while he has not really done very much around the house but if I say that they both start barking at me to focus on the positives!)
I think maybe couples counselling is a set formula or template where both parties apogise and promise to try harder.

from paris to berlin - thanks for the message
My girl is with her granny and I am going to sit down and write that complaint letter right now.
You say it is such an issue in our society - do you mean counselling going wrong? Is there any agency who care about this who I could contact? It seems that there are loads of people with similar experiences, but who is raising awareness of it?

Heather - does this counsellor work for any of the marriage guidance organisations such as Relate?

Bear in mind it's not your job to create a case against her, simply to detail all the damaging things she has done in your experience with her.

It's for the organisation she works for, or her training body if she works independently, to decide what to do about the information.

Hi - It'd not Relate but a similar organisation with centres in several cities. I was thinking of complaining to the BACP (of which she is a member) and possibly the organisation. The whole things is long and sprawling but I have written a letter of complaint to her. The BACP advise that you try and resolve things at local level first. so I wrote her a letter and will then write to the organisations. I'm hoping that she might put in writing denying some of the things that partner is going around saying. Like there is equal abuse on both sides. Or that the relationship ended because I failed to take responsibility for myself (rather than I refused to continue to cover up domestic abuse by apologising for it. ) That's my first step. I also don't think she is working within her limitations of competence. (domestic abuse) that's a no no.

You must contact the organisation she works for. Because she has broken the guidelines for dealing with abusive relationships. They need to know this, and she needs a talking to & retraining.

If you had a preliminary interview with another counsellor (this is what Relate do) and the abuse wasn't picked up then, that would imply there's something wrong with their screening procedure. So they need to know this.

Equally the BACP need to know what she's up to. It may be that she's doesn't have the relevant training to work with couples.

Personally, I would make 3 copies of the letter: send one to her, one to her organisation & one to the BACP. Inform her that you are sending these copies.

I will contact the organisation.

1. Is is a definite guideline not to continue counselling in the event of abuse?
2. Talking about her own relationship, her own husband is "very violent" but not "abusive". Much other personal information.
3. Giving an assessment that abuse is on both sides - apparently this is very rare and not how abuse dynamics work but I'd like to know that this is recognised fact? Is it in LUndy bancroft?
4. failing to identify abuse. I said clearly in the 1st session that partner got very angry and lashed out. She never once questioned this until she was kind of crossly saying "what is your problem?" in the 3rd session. Then it got onto domestic abvuse. then during partners interview she said to him she didn't think there was any domestic abuse, which I have never heard the end of.
5. Wrongly saying we were both as abusive. he has put fist through wall. The worst i have done is spit on him after he was angry for over 24 hours and came to the bedroom where I was lying down and started angrily lecturing me again (to apologise for him kicking cup of coffee off table the day before. ) I since asked him if i had frightened harmed or controled him and he said no.
6. continuing to suggest i improve manners, after he was just taking the piss: I said "What?" he said "don't say "what?" - say "I'm sorry I didn't quite catch that" or "could you repeat that please?"" I told her he was taking the piss but she just carried on advising me on how to ask him nicely and what to say, and to qualify what i said in case he misunderstood (as in the time when i said "are you ok?" and he angrily growled "I know what you mean by that ")

Any more suggested items for letter very welcome!

"2. Talking about her own relationship, her own husband is "very violent" but not "abusive". Much other personal information."

That sound especially worrying. She shouldn't be talking about her own life to a client, but most counsellors Ikniw have to have their own "counsellor" and in her circumstances I don't think she should be involved in couples counselling.

I found this from a solicitors Talking about her own relationship, her own husband is "very violent" but not "abusive". Much other personal information. List of types of abuse by counsellors. I am not suggesting you sue, but hopefully it helps you feel validated (I could see at least 2 or 3 she has definitely breached).

1. How the relationship has got worse during the counselling, and how it has got much worse since the abuse questionnaire.