I think I need to end my marriage to save my children but I don't think I want to...

[thinkofthemoney]

I would be really grateful for some perspective or advice or even just a few kind words!
My husband is a lovely, kind, caring man and an excellent hands on father to our children and generally a wonderful husband. I really do love him to bits.
However, he is rubbish with money. He runs his own business (badly) and over the last 10 years or so has been stacking up business debts. He is averaging about £1000 per month of credit card debt to creditors. I am certain it is not gambling or spending.
He consistently lies about his debts, intercepts the post, hides statements etc.
On at least 5 occasions I have discovered his hidden debts and he cries, hates himself, promises to get on top of things, will never do it again blah blah. I pay it off or sort out repayment plans, worry myself sick and then lo and behold a few months later I find he's done it again.
Over the years I have paid off 90k of debt (I earn ok plus I've had a large inheritance).
Last year I discovered a further 30k of debt, I have sorted 0% card shifts and repayments plans and warned him this was the absoloute last time I could cope with this. Again he cried, promised he would change, cut up all the credit cards etc.
He refuses any offers of help to go through his books etc.
I found out yesterday in the last 6 months he's wracked up another 7k of business debt (all on personal credit cards).
The same groundhog day of him crying, promising he will change etc etc.
Now clearly the business isn't working although it definitely has the potential to make lots of money (he has lots of work, is good at his job). However, he has never actually sat down and worked out what is going wrong. I am so frustrated, how can he ever change if he can't even identify what the underlying problem is?
It seems to me on the surface that he is paying to go to work and we would be better off him staying at home and me working full time (although this would be a struggle).
He argues that as the business can make money he should keep going with it, he just needs to work harder.
I work very long hours that we would struggle to get childcare for and I rely on him for drop offs and pick ups and we have a child who is frequently hospitalised so I really rely on him so him being employed by someone else would be really difficult. I suspect this is the reason his business is failing, he just can't put the hours in.

Anyhow I am rambling to try and explain but my real dilema is that I feel having warned him I would kick him out if it happened again I need to follow through. I am totally aware that I am enabling his behaviour.
My options are stay with him but sort his business (and debts) out, force him to give up work, or kick him out and ensure a secure future for myself and my 2 children.
The amounts of money involved and the secure future we could have had makes me sick. The lies are the worst and I am an emotional wreck.
I love him and really don't know what to do. I'm too embarassed to speak to anyone in real life. I would be really grateful for any replies.

Well he's the only plumber in the UK that doesn't charge for his services, and in that vein, he's happy to not charge but for you to pick up the tab then - I would seriously be wondering what he has done with all that money.

In that case he's not really running a business so much as self employed.

When you say he 'stacks up business debts' is actually investing this money or is he using it as a crutch to live on?

Obviously he'd be better off working for a plumbing firm. But he's always going to be crap with money.

Ask him why he is letting YOU pay for plumbing services to virtual strangers?

What a sad, sad situation for you all. He doesn't sound remotely suited to being self-employed - it's not for everybody. Anyone can "put the hours in", the real skill is in negotiating for what you're worth and monitoring your own performance, the things that paid employment takes care of for you.

Can't see what else you can do but follow through He has his head thoroughly buried in the sand.

I agree hellsbells - he needs a complete audit, but if the debt he's accrued in the last 10 years isn't enough of a wake up call, is he even likely to change his business practices?

The only grounds on which you should stay with him is that he agrees to wind up his businessimmediately and get himself a job with a plumbing company. Even if he has to wait a few weeks before a company takes him on, it will still be cheaper than you paying for him to lose more money by being self-employed.

Has he been spending vast amounts of your money on things like renting office space, designers to draw him a company logo, expensive mobile phone, headed notepaper and all that sort of crap?

That amount of debt is very odd.
Perhaps understandable when he had an employee, but he should at least charge for materials, even if not the call outs.

I'd really want to know what his "business" expenses are. Have you seen the credit card statements?

I'm really sorry for you. This must be horrendously stressful for you, especially if you do love him and he is a good father.

But honestly, I don't think you have any choice. You have to follow through...

What will happen if you do not ? Eventually all your inheritance will be gone and you too will be in debt. All the money you have saved that could benefit your children will be spend 'supporting' him and his bad business decisions.

I think you have two options:

He gives up his hobby, sorry - business. Becomes a SAHD and has no access to credit cards, accounts, anything but a reasonable amount of housekeeping/spending money

OR

He has to leave.

You cannot carry on like this. You've mentioned at least £127k that has been frittered away. You could have put your children through uni, bought them cars, deposits on their first flat!

maja00 - I don't think that would work. Even if they chop up all his credit cards and close his accounts, I suspect very strongly that he would apply for cards etc in secret.

He'd be better off working as a volunteer for a charity that couldn't afford a plumber. What a waste.

I really feel for you OP.

My DH's only fault is that he's shit with money, and he did this to us once to the tune of 10's of thousands. We made some massive changes as.a.family once he 'fessed up and it affected all of us hugely.

The difference is I know he won't do it again, and that's why I really feel for you because I know how hard it is to go through it once, more than once must be killing you.

Only you know if you can ask him to leave or not. It must be really difficult for you.

Apologies for the random full stops.

I don't understand how being a plumber who isn't very financially savvy can result in a loss of over 120k. Surely they only need materials when they have a job on, and they get those wholesale on 30 day payment terms so the client has paid before they have to pay the supplier.

Please tell me he does this and not just go to b&q and buy retail.

Does he have premises and fax machines and an iPhone and letterheads and business cards? I just can't understand where it's all gone if he definitely doesn't have a gambling problem or a secret family or something.

What is he doing with his earnings? Follow through your threats, or else he will bleed you dry.

Empathy and kindness coming your way from over here. You sound like a very, very patient and kind person and the way it is manifesting in your relationship is that you are determined to see the best in your husband and give him the benefit of the doubt time and again. My mum did this for my dad for years, both of them really gorgeous people and generous to a fault in their own ways; my dad was a fantastic dad, but, like your DP, completely incompetent when it came to running any of his many business ventures, completely at the mercy of his soft heart which, like your DP, led him to do silly things like not charging people for his services, not chasing invoices etc. My mum tried to support his entrepreneurial spirit by similar means to you, but to no avail.
(Have to take a break, back in half an hour to finish writing.)
Like my dad, your DP has some kind of blind spot, to put it mildly, around the way he is running his business and he needs to address this in some way.
I was thinking that if you rely on him to remain self-employed so he can do pick ups and drop offs while he is racking up £1000 in business debt per month (did I read that right?) you would do better to pay a fraction of this amount to a reliable nanny or childminder or make some kind of arrangement with a friend to cover the same pick ups and drop offs, and insist that your DP does something which is guaranteed to generate and income.
You need to separate your finances somehow and insulate yourself from further impact from your DPs financial recklessness. I have no doubt your DP is a very lovely man (with a gigantic blind spot which causes him to behave very irresponsibly, selfishly and disrespectfully toward you and your children), and I can totally understand that you don't want to end your marriage, but do find some means of protecting yourself and safeguarding your children's financial security.

hmm, interesting that the first lot of debt you paid off came to £90K! and after that the sums have been smaller. The £90K one was ok because you had an inheritance.

My stepfather was rubbish with money and my mum had bailed him out many a time. Then my grandad died and my mum was due to inherit a tidy sum. Stepfather immediately started running up debts again - he knew mum had the cash to pay them for him.

I think it's significant that his biggest debt was when you had the biggest nest egg to pay it for him.

At least sever all ties. Or you're putting yourself in significant financial danger.

Thank you for all the replies. I'm going to take some time to read them properly.
I know what I have to do but I know it will break my children. It will break me not having him around, I really do love him.

I think when he is paid in cash he is spending it straight out again (no idea on what though - sure he doesn't gamble?) so it's only income by cheque or bank transfer that actually comes in to pay his suppliers and the tax man?

Random that is exactly what is happening. He needs to go through his books/bank statements and work out where it is all going. I've seen a few statements and it is all paying off previous credit card debts, fuel, food and his share of the bills and mortgage. He also pays for a van he obviously can't afford and I am sure there are savings to be made elsewhere but the point is he has never actually sat down and done this.
If I do it I am just bailing him out again in one form or another.

If you could afford to bail him out, could you afford for him to take on someone to manage the financial side of it for him? Clearly you do need to follow through by asking him to leave etc, at least in the short term so that he knows you are serious, but in the longer term if you want to be with him it's obvious he can't continue like this.

I would want financial seperation tbh.

Would he keep a note book where he writes down every day what he receives and what he spends? I think it is a task you could both do together without you taking over.

He is happy for me to have the mortgage in my name (only a few thousand left on it so therefore the house would be mine).
Jacquesie I can't afford to bail him out this time, he's had all my/our savings.

It's not going to be cost effective to get any kind of manager for a one man band plumber.

You obviously love him & want to stay with him, so just to echo what others have said, you need to set the following terms:

You both need sit down with your accountant/financial advisor, or find a good one if you don't have one, go through all his accounts, cards etc for at least the last year & up to the last 5 years.

Then you need to insist he works for a firm not for himself. And if he won't do that, stay at home & look after the kids while you work.

He needs to write his up all his spending in formal accounts, which you then go over, for at least the next year to check up. Every bank statement, every credit card bill, and he needs to keep the receipts for everything he pays for in cash.

You need to make sure that your finances are totally separated from now on, so that if he runs up more debts - they are in his name alone.

He HAS to stop this - now. I would want him in full-time, paid employment (time working isn't time frittering away money), and use his wage to pay debts + childminder for pick ups/drop offs. Tell him he has 30 days or whatever to find that job, or he can pack his bags and go. You let him carry on, and he'll lose the roof over your heads.