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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

Breach if contact order

95 replies

Inamess1 · 12/07/2013 22:55

I really need some advice. Hope iv posted in the right bit.

Basically ive had the police around today because my ex husband is saying i breached a contact order. I did but with a valid reason that he was going to transport the children on a 2 hour journey without carseats. When the police arrived i was shaken up and it was 10.00 so kids were in bed asleep. I refused to allow the kids to be woken up and transported 2 hours away, so i guess im going to be in serious trouble. Thepolice officer said i could lose custody of the children or face prison sentence. Is that really fair on a mother who does absolutely everything for her children with no help from father. Obviously im worried and frightened of what might happen. Advice and support needed!

Just to add ex is a very horrible, aggressive person but judge didnt notice it.

OP posts:

Original poster

Inamess1 · 14/07/2013 11:26

Thanks, I guess I will see what solicitor says tomorrow. Surely before he prevents the holiday I will get a hearing to give my side if the story?!

OP posts:

Lonecatwithkitten · 14/07/2013 11:41

My Dad was a family court JP for many many years. He once had a case similar to yours the purchase and correct fitting of the correct car seat was made a condition of the contact order. A court official had to see the seat correctly fitted in the car before the contact order was confirmed.
Through my own unfortunate experience you can stop contact if you believe he has been drinking or taking drugs. It is best practice to raise your concerns in writing prior to this is you believe it is happen. This is your duty of care to your children under the children's act.
Keep a written record of everything times etc - he won't of done.

Original poster

Inamess1 · 14/07/2013 12:23

It's good to know my concern does not sound trivial to others. Sometimes it feels like I'm making a fuss out of nothing when you tell some people.

OP posts:

Hissy · 14/07/2013 13:03

I'd be interested to know who that officer if I were you. I can't believe a real serving officer would knock for such young children and be 'very angry' when you politely sted that you wouldn't.

Get a legal letter written, gel CAB advice about the order and car seats. Get drink drugs covered too.

AFAIK, if you have residency, you have the right to 2 weeks holiday without permission. Again, search for advice here.

Hissy · 14/07/2013 13:05

Oh, and you are not making a mountain out of a molehill. Only pouty agressive exes'd think that, and we don't give a shit about them if they can't place their DC safety in prime permission.

clam · 14/07/2013 13:20

Surely police officers aren't supposed to "get very angry" when on duty? Especially with such a case as this? I think I would be phoning the local station and asking for them to check their records as to who this was.

It might have been a "real" officer, but could it not also have been a mate of your ex?

Hissy · 14/07/2013 13:28

That's my feeling clam. I don't believe a PC would act like that.

Spero · 14/07/2013 13:28

As a family lawyer, you can only be sent to prison for breach or contact order or have your children removed if you are found to have breached the order on numerous occasions and for no good reason.

Having serious concerns about the safety of your children is a good reason. If were the judge I would make correctly fitted car seats a condition of any further contact. I would not punish you for breaching an order on the facts you describe here.

The police behaviour does sound very odd.

Do you have anyone who could go to court with you to give you moral support, take notes? Judges usually sympathetic to litigants in person.

Original poster

Inamess1 · 14/07/2013 14:37

It was def a real policeman, and not a friend of my ex because firstly he has no friends and secondly he lives a 2 hour drive from me and doesn't know anyone around my area.

I will find out who officer was on mon, the only reason why I can see the officer acting like that is if he thought as a woman I am being unreasonable to the father and seeing it from a male perspective. Also the fact that ex turned up with car seats at 10pm was not acceptable to me, as I wasn't prepared to wake them. That is where I imagine I will be in trouble.

With the regard to holiday. I am allowed to take the kids on holiday for A week and gave ex the 2 weeks notice I'm required to give. But I think his grounds to stop me going will be the fact that I didn't comply to contact order and now he won't want to miss seeing his kids for another 2 weekends. I don't know what a judge will say about that.

OP posts:

Spero · 14/07/2013 15:36

I don't think you were unreasonable in refusing to get children up at 10pm, unless this meant missing a flight or similar. Ex should have turned up next morning with car seats.

One thind judges hate is mindless game playing and tit for tat that makes children suffer. To refuse to let them have a planned holiday with their mother because he is upset at your behaviour, isn't acceptable.

You need to try, if you can, to get the heat out of this situation and try to communicate with each other like adults. Easier said than done I know. But the only ones who will really suffer if scenarios like this continue to play out, are the children.

Lweji · 14/07/2013 16:11

What on earth was he going with the children at 10pm, not spending quality time with them!

He should have got there the next morning, or much earlier.

Even if they were awake, it would mean them only arriving at midnight.
They are not babies who can actually sleep well in a carrier.

I don't think any decent judge will give him any attention.
And, in fact, I'd be giving him a stern lecture.

Original poster

Inamess1 · 14/07/2013 17:03

He turned up at 10pm because he was due to pick them up at 7 and I refused to let them go and turned up again with the police at 10pm.

I know the judge will expect us to behave like adults but we just can't communicate.
I hope the judge doesn't see me as a bitch that's all I can say.
Spero, I hope you are right about the holiday! Can't afford to lose the sort of money it costs to go abroad in summer these days. Not to mention letting the children down.

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Spero · 14/07/2013 19:45

Does he have PR? Do you have a residence order?

If you don't have a residence order you need his permission to leave the country IF he has PR. are you going abroad?

If worse comes to worse you may need to make an emergency app to court for permission, but Judge will be very unimpressed by it all.

You don't have to be friends, you just need to be able to communicate civilly and not get the police involved. But for this incident I would say blame squarely in his court, he cannot transport small children without car seats and you did the right thing to keep them safe.

But why not just sort out car seats and come back later? Why involve the police? Sounds exhausting for everyone.

perfectstorm · 14/07/2013 19:59

If he's been to rehab twice it will be on his medical notes. He has to consent to those being available, I think, but it will look incredibly dodgy if he doesn't. You can also ask for drug testing to be a condition of contact.

I'd post on Legal rather than relationships. At least 3 or 4 specialist family law solicitors post there regularly and can advise you accordingly.

Original poster

Inamess1 · 14/07/2013 21:09

Yes I have residence order in my favour.

I think he really wants to get me on trouble because of bitterness.

I will post on legal too. Thanks

OP posts:

Spero · 14/07/2013 23:51

If you have a residence order you can leave England and Wales for up to 28 days without permission or agreement from anyone else with PR. He can only stop you if he gets a Prohibited Steps Order - or if he retains the children and you can't get them back before you go.

Good luck. Is there anyone else who could help with handovers etc for a while, just to let the situation cool down a bit?

Original poster

Inamess1 · 15/07/2013 06:28

Thanks spero, I could ask others in my family to hep with handovers but he makes everything so difficult. It would be unfair to involve my family. Eg he had his mum park her car 40 yards down the road (he is banned from driving due to drink driving) so expecting family members to walk down with the kids then a couple of trips with the luggage feels a bit unfair. All seems like minor issues but when you are actually dealing with them it gets pretty stressful.

OP posts:

Original poster

Inamess1 · 15/07/2013 06:30

You are right I can take them but have to give 14 days notice which I have done. Only issue now is if judge expects me to give children on the coming weekend and I fear he won't return them. Or if he applies to prevent me going because of breach.

OP posts:

lunar1 · 15/07/2013 06:49

I will be surprised if this turns out to be a real police officer. What are the children getting out of contact with their father? Good luck op

Hissy · 15/07/2013 07:28

Double check on whether it's law to seek permission. It may not be.

Yes it's polite/considerate to do so, in normal circumstances, but these are not normal circumstance.

Use this week to get cast iron advice (cab) on what your rights here are, and what his are. Also the mechanisms available to protect yourself.

Spero · 15/07/2013 08:11

If both parents have PR and there is no residence order, if one of you takes the child out of the jurisdiction without the permission of the other parent and they complain this is the criminal offence of child abduction.

So yes, you do need permission.

BUT having a residence order allows you to leave the jurisdiction for up to 28 days without such permission.

Spero · 15/07/2013 08:13

I would not advise you to breach the contact order because you fear he will retain the children. He will simply say, no of course I wouldn't and that would make you look bad.

Can you text or email and say you are sorry things got so fraught but can he understand why you were so concerned about the car seats and you hope things can go ok from now on.

clam · 15/07/2013 12:00

Don't say "you" are sorry. Say "it is regrettable" that things got difficult.

Spero · 15/07/2013 12:09

I think it would be better to say you are sorry that the situation got out of hand. This isn't blaming yourself, as I don't think you are to blame on this one.

But I would avoid formal and slightly pompous tones, that often just enrages people further.

The bottom line is that you both need to find a way to parent without involving other agencies such as police or courts. Or you will have a long and stressful road ahead given the ages of your children.

But of course if he continues to be an arse, you may have no choice.

Original poster

Inamess1 · 15/07/2013 12:30

I will post to update on the situation after visit to the solicitor.

OP posts:

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