DW, marriage, communication, sex and stuff.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, I?ve posted in Dadsnet and Feminism already for advice regarding specific parts of my slightly dysfunctional marriage, so it?s time to bite the bullet and whack a post in relationships!

Bit of background, I?m male, DW and I have been married five years, together ten. Both mid 30?s, two DCs (2 and 4) and no sex life. I?ve considered and tried various anaphrodisiacs and been reading a lot about PIV/Feminism womens views of sex and got myself thoroughly paranoid about the number of women with disappointing sex lives and I think DW may be one of them.

I?ve tried to broach the subject a few times, but she says it?s tiredness/stress (understandable considering the young kids I suppose), I?ve asked whether she enjoys it when we do have sex, she says yes. I?ve even asked if she fakes it! She says no. Not sure whether I believe any of it because I know she wouldn?t want to hurt my feelings, and there does seem to be a big proportion of women out there who aren?t happy.

I help around the house as much as I can (still got to buy a copy of Wifework to make sure I?m covering all bases) and I think we split things pretty equally despite me being fulltime working and DW a SAHM. She has the option of lie-ins at weekends (but rarely takes them), I try to do all the kiddy stuff at weekends to give her a break and cooking/cleaning in evenings is my responsibility most of the time too (she tends to do most of the laundry and cooking for the kids).
So I suppose the question is, how long should I wait before putting an ultimatum/suggesting counselling/ending the Marriage? (rhetorical: I know only I can answer that) I love DW and would do anything for her (have considered chemical castration at times), but this is getting me down and I?ve started having slightly suicidal thoughts which I know isn?t healthy. The constant rejection I could cope with if I knew what the reason was. Could be a case that counselling for me is required.

I think it all started about 5 years ago when we were TTC, after 1 year DW became pregnant and morning sickness put a kibosh on any intimacy, a year later we DTD once and number two came along, again Morning Sickness meant a nine month break, BFing extended this and it all fell into a rut so we?ve only DTD six times in the past five years! Putting that down in writing is quite shocking.

Anyway, DW has issues with her body post pregnancy. I find her sexy and attractive, but my constant reassurances fall on deaf ears (haven?t seen her naked for five years either). I think she may need some help to improve her confidence as nothing I can say changes it a jot. Not sure on the best way to approach this one, so any words would of advice would be good. I think once she?s happy with herself then we can talk more about what she wants out of life and whether she even wants me in it.

Sorry, this post is all a bit disjointed and I?ve probably missed stuff out but it?s cathartic to get it down even if this gets no responses!

2much2young. It's what I observe with my mates and their DWs

Shit, I'm not evem conning myself now. Probably time to go.

Thanks chipmonkey. I don't think that I can do much more other to be a good DH and take whatever is thrown my way. DW doesn't like being touched or hugged even though I have tried dissociate hugs from DTD. Just occasional functional DTD very late in the night.

I think our sex lives were imbalanced before DC and I take some of the blame. We have discussed but never seem to move much forward. It seems that I am valued as a provider and dad but that is mostly it. I try to not make an issue of it but them after a couple of months, I get a bit fed up and we either do quickie or argue......and the cycle goes on. I keep myself in good shape so it is frustrating being unfulfilled in this respect. DW is as attractive as when we got married, intelligent and I am proud of her but a little depressing that things are not likely to get better in that area unless I leave which is too high a price to pay. So suppressing that side is the only answer. DW thinks that a counsellor would take my side and doesn't like the intrusion so that isn't an option.

Keepithidden, what did you mean by conning yourself?

I dont think it should matter if you have young children or not, there is still plenty of time to have meals just the two of you, snuggle watching films, and having sex. It only wont happen if you dont want it to happen.

Petey- I don't tend to have dinner. Sometimes I help to make her dinner and keep her company. I have recently started to watch odd movie with her - before I preferred to do other things. Cuddling whilst watching is not favoured around here.

What other things did you do?

We have little time: Chatting, PC, getting stuff ready for next day, tidying up, opening mail. I prefer to pay for extra domestic help but DW not so keen. I think there is some scope to change that though.

The point is it is okay to stay up late to watch movie but not to DTD. There are a few women at work who lean on me for advice and help...I am a popular choice for mentor by both men and women (personality rather than anything else).....a couple of the single women show much warmth towards me and it makes me realise that my relationship at home is missing much warmth.

I think its strange all the jobs are taking up all your evenings. Do you never cuddle or just hold hands or snog on sofa? Are you physically close often?

himoutdoors the way you were talking a couple of posts upthread it sounds like you are paving the way and excusing yourself already for having an affair

No not physically close often. We both have lots to do. Children, work, chores....

DW used to like physical closeness before children. I have become a much much better partner with time but there is a sort of inverse effect. I had never held a vacuum when we got married. We had an argument about that a few months after marriage and I responded by vacuuming. I wasn't completely hopeless as We didn't have a dishwasher so I used to do all the washing up. Even then I tended to cook for both of us. I always had empathy for my mom and how hard she worked so when I got married it wasn't too difficult to work out that I needed to respond to demands. Other women are amazed at how much I do and DW sometimes resents the attention or fuss made and kinda just says that we are equal parties so I am doing my bit which is correct of course. But then I see the husbands that we mix getting away with it and being loved up and I wonder.

Dh does the same amount at home as me he cooks, cleans, does lots of childcare, and gives me time with my friends. I do half the chores, and the rest of the time is grown up time, and we sit close most nights. I sit in bathroom chatting whilst hes on shower, we watch tv together, kiss, hug etc. We have sex on average 3-4 times a week, because I am attracted to him, and he makes sure Im well rested.

Sounds perfect. DW hasn't been happy at work for a few years. I support and listen to her. I think DW doesn't have the energy or inclination....worn down by a job she feels trapped in. Our relationship is not high priority for her. A little angry and dissatisfied - although we are blessed in so many ways. I think that I have clear choice to either bear it, leave, or cheat. I honestly think that my wife wouldn't care that much if it didn't disrupt or interfere with her life/space.

AF- we actually discussed my having OW as a solution!

My DW reservations were not about the emotional impact on relationship. Just whether it will interfere with DC. The implication is that I would have to keep it out of the way.

OP where are you?

It doesnt sound like you do much with her. You arent close, you both spend hours each night doing jobs so no time for each other. I am sure that could be changed.

Her favourite tv programme is always the priority. I will try to watch more tv with her. It's a long and lonely road to walk. We get on really well until I show any physical affection. Hugs and kisses don't go done well here even if I declare not ulterior motive.

Have you asked her what the problem is? Have you asked her what she wants to do?

Well you could go to a counsellor on your own.

There seems to be an impasse ( if that's the right word) and you need to find something which might result in DW getting her spark back.

My DBIL is everyone's supportive sympathiser at work - drives my DSis mad as, although a nice DH, he is not as empathetic at home. Imo he loves the admiration and 'mr nice guy' image at work and happily encourages it and revels in it, which is a bit hmmm to me, as it is a bit of an act.

You do sound a bit smug himoutdoors - but you are blind to your faults and thus can't make the changes needed. Perhaps if you looked truly and deeply distressed at the failure of your relationship rather than resigned to having to find love elsewhere things might change.

I think some of the time the answer is 'because I don't fancy you' and that is a hard thing to say and an equally hard thing to hear.

But worse is hanging about for years getting increasingly sadder and sadder.

which takes me back to my original point.

If you can't talk to one another, honestly and openly, about what makes you happy or unhappy, then I really don't see the point in a relationship at all. It seems simply a recipe for living a life of quiet desparation, of compromise, of mind games and other game playing. Layers and layers of inauthenticity which can only lead to depression and resentment.

And if anyone is lying awake at night crying because they feel that they cannot connect to their partner either emotionally or physically, then it is problem for both of you. One of you is not communicating your pain and/or the other is just not listening.

Fwiw I haven't seen any examples of sexless relationships resolving themselves. I tried for 3 years - futile counselling, efforts to be romantic/consideration and it was horrible and soul destroying. I think the reality in my case was that he just didn't fancy me, the only answer I could ever get out of him was that my stomach wasn't flat any more (I had been pregnant by then).

Obviously, that wasn't the 'real' reason - if he really loved me he wouldn't have cared about my stomach, as so many here have said, their partners go out of their way to tell them they are still desirable etc.

But if one or both or you can't or won't talk about it, you either accept the situation for what it is, or you leave. I don't see there is any other alternative if there is no communication.

himoutdoors I can see how your comments can be taken out of context but you don't sound smug, you sound like a person who's been worn down and is on the verge of leaving.

but you don't sound smug - yes, I was possibly being unfair but if you have had the 'well, shall I move out?' conversation and that hasn't shaken up DW then you might well give up, but I am not sure you have actually had that conversation about what exactly will happen re contact with DCs, finances, etc when you split.
Perhaps she is waiting for you to make all the decisions then assumes she can continue as she is, same house, same job, same DCs but no DH. Can you shake up that plan so she properly reassesses what she wants out of life?

Keepitintheden,

Hi...firstly I would like to echo a lot of the other posters and say that you sound like a lovely chap. There has been an awful lot said on this thread and varied replies/opinions etc and I haven't had chance to read them all. What I have done though is focused on your posts and I can see some areas where I might make suggestions:

Please let me say sorry if any of this is off the mark or offends but its the cue's I have taken from your posts.....

From you posts you come across as very much an analytical person and as someone who over thinks things, or puts a lot of emphasis on the details. The reason why I mention this is that I think that this may be the reason why you DW is not so willing to discuss sexual issues with you and why, if she does discuss it she does not discuss it at length or in detail. She is likely to know that anything she does say will be over-thought and then analyzed by you, and issues that may seem small to her may be magnified by you and ultimately hurt your feelings.

I think and it sounds to me like you wife does still love you and is still attracted to you. I think that she suffers with low sex drive having 2 small children to care for and tiredness etc. While your more frustrated with the lack of sex/intimacy she is not as frustrated or as concerned as you are, which is not uncommon it does not mean she loves you any less, finds you any less attractive, it just means she is more content to forego the sex for the meantime in favour of rest/sleep etc.

Also from the sounds of things I imagine from how you seem to be you seem to be the type of guy that wants to put a lot of effort into sex and it to making it a good experience for both you and her. While this is a really lovely sentiment (and it really is) she may find it quiet laborious and she may well be lying there wishing you made much less of meal out of it and just got on with it. However I bet she dare not say that to you because it would make her and you feel awful, because she knows that she should appreciate the effort that you are trying to put in to please her and make it nice for her. I'm thinking she would think that if she said that to you that you may again take it very personally and over analyze it. I have a strong feeling that she won't say these things to you because she loves you, is trying to spare your feelings and doesn't want you to drive yourself crazy with either thinking your not good enough in bed and that she wants it over with, or that she doesn't want it at all, when in fact neither is the truth.

I account this to after I had my children especially my second, I still fancied the pants of my OH, still loved him, found him attractive etc but did I want sex.......HELL NO! So what happened was we had sex much less then usual for us, and therefor I think he felt that whenever sex was on the menu it had to be a 3 course meal.....I know he wanted to make it good for me but I also know he wanted to make the most of it while it was up for grabs lol. I on the other hand would think to myself I wish he wouldn't make such a meal out of it and think why cant we just have a nice quickie instead. This lead to me being even less inclined to want sex because having sex meant that it would be this big deal and would last for ages when I really was so tired and didn't have the energy to be bothered with ages of passionate kissing and stroking. I still wanted sex, but somehow all the fuss kissing and stroking etc seemed to much faff when knackered. This really offended my OH, as far as he was concerned he was making a real effort to please me in the bedroom and be romantic and was upset when I would say I wasn't in the mood or whatever. In the end we had a big conversation where I kindly explained to him that while I appreciated all the effort he was putting it, it was actually rather putting me off! I explained that I would feel like sex more often if I knew that it was more of a quickie than a love making marathon. I told him that I still wanted sex with him it was just that with the children/work/cleaning house etc I was just so tired that a quickie was rather more appealing than anything else at the time and that I was sure it would change in the future. Luckily he was very understanding and realized that it wasn't anything to take personal but was just more circumstances at the time. Years later we are still together and have a good sex life balanced nicely with quickies and lovemaking sessions.

I think it is entirely possible that your wife may feel the same way or at least something very similar. At the crux of this is that I think she has a hard time being honest with you because she fears hurting you and more importantly hurting your self esteem as you will over think any critique. She is probably also concerned about your on/off depression and may not want to harm your well being, as she will see the problem as lying with her and not you. After all you still want sex, still have a healthy sex drive and she feels like she does not. She is probably thinking/wishing/wondering where her own sex drive has gone and hoping it comes back and then she can fix the gulf between you in the way you want it fixing.

I am sorry for the very long post. I am sorry as well if anything I've said hurts or offends, was not my intention. I do hope that it helps though.

Wishing you well.

if we didnt have children we probably would have made or broken by now. But I know that it would be sub-optimal for them on several levels so I wouldn't do that without giving it best shot. I would find it harder to live with than personal scarifice. Further, I still love DW and she occasionally says the same. I think her work and a few other factors don't help. I am supportive but no

himoutdoors its over between you. Your wife isn't attracted to you/just doesn't want sex with you. It doesn't mean you're deficient. But stop focusing on how she doesn't want cuddles on the sofa etc, you're so flogging a dead horse. It's not going to happen. Instead focus only on how you could manage a coparenting but separate life with minimum disruption to the DCs. After all, that's exactly what she wants so why beat yourself up thinking she'll be persuaded in any other direction!

At least then you could open the doors legitimately to someone else but you'd probably have to keep it on the down low. My advice would be the same for OP and anyone else in the same situation.