DW, marriage, communication, sex and stuff.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, I?ve posted in Dadsnet and Feminism already for advice regarding specific parts of my slightly dysfunctional marriage, so it?s time to bite the bullet and whack a post in relationships!

Bit of background, I?m male, DW and I have been married five years, together ten. Both mid 30?s, two DCs (2 and 4) and no sex life. I?ve considered and tried various anaphrodisiacs and been reading a lot about PIV/Feminism womens views of sex and got myself thoroughly paranoid about the number of women with disappointing sex lives and I think DW may be one of them.

I?ve tried to broach the subject a few times, but she says it?s tiredness/stress (understandable considering the young kids I suppose), I?ve asked whether she enjoys it when we do have sex, she says yes. I?ve even asked if she fakes it! She says no. Not sure whether I believe any of it because I know she wouldn?t want to hurt my feelings, and there does seem to be a big proportion of women out there who aren?t happy.

I help around the house as much as I can (still got to buy a copy of Wifework to make sure I?m covering all bases) and I think we split things pretty equally despite me being fulltime working and DW a SAHM. She has the option of lie-ins at weekends (but rarely takes them), I try to do all the kiddy stuff at weekends to give her a break and cooking/cleaning in evenings is my responsibility most of the time too (she tends to do most of the laundry and cooking for the kids).
So I suppose the question is, how long should I wait before putting an ultimatum/suggesting counselling/ending the Marriage? (rhetorical: I know only I can answer that) I love DW and would do anything for her (have considered chemical castration at times), but this is getting me down and I?ve started having slightly suicidal thoughts which I know isn?t healthy. The constant rejection I could cope with if I knew what the reason was. Could be a case that counselling for me is required.

I think it all started about 5 years ago when we were TTC, after 1 year DW became pregnant and morning sickness put a kibosh on any intimacy, a year later we DTD once and number two came along, again Morning Sickness meant a nine month break, BFing extended this and it all fell into a rut so we?ve only DTD six times in the past five years! Putting that down in writing is quite shocking.

Anyway, DW has issues with her body post pregnancy. I find her sexy and attractive, but my constant reassurances fall on deaf ears (haven?t seen her naked for five years either). I think she may need some help to improve her confidence as nothing I can say changes it a jot. Not sure on the best way to approach this one, so any words would of advice would be good. I think once she?s happy with herself then we can talk more about what she wants out of life and whether she even wants me in it.

Sorry, this post is all a bit disjointed and I?ve probably missed stuff out but it?s cathartic to get it down even if this gets no responses!

Arsenal - Impressive. Never has a post prompted such soul searching and relationship reappraisal as I've gone through today. Bit depressing this morning, and I'm not sure I've got any answers to the apparent contradictory nature of my posts. But neither DW or I are the type to "rip each others clothes off", yet we did enjoy each other physically at the start and after the usual honeymoon period. Maybe it's pure semantics, or maybe I'm just uncomfortable with describing myself as some kind of Casanova. The spark was there and remained for a number of years, it may not of been a lightning bolt (think slowly undressing each other in candlelight rather than shredding each others garments), but it was a few volts above a three point mains socket if that analogy works.

Darkest - Sorry I didn't respond more fully to your posts, you're another one I have immense sympathy for. Some days I feel a complete failure of a man, somedays I hope for something better. Some days I'm too busy too care. It's interesting that there are so many women in a similar predicatment, the tradition of sex-hungry-man compared to frigid-women is just another example of the myths that abound between genders. I can understand why this frustrates you.

Spero - I'm think your post mentioning young children was aimed at me, and you're right about the communication thing. When I mentioned counselling to DW she jumped to the conclusion that it was all over and this was just a way out. I explained that it was more about encouraging and aiding communication and she accepted that she wasn't good at communicating so I think there's certainly an acceptance that work needs to be done in this area. It's certainly not all on her shoulders though.

Also, nothing wrong with a bit of selfish enjoyment. Just don't take it to schadenfreude levels of humour please!

Petey - Sounds like you've got it all sorted. I'm jealous, yet remain hopeful of similar in the future.

Lilly - No hurt or offence taken. From the brief outline of my life and personality presented in this thread I think you've summed me up quite well. Even more interestingly the way you describe sex is also very similar to my approach. The quickie is something I've never been great at initiating, I think I've been assuming for so long that women need hours of foreplay and romance that I've lost the knack of the quickie. Going to bring that up with DW at the next opportunity, I wouldn't be surprised if she felt exactly the same as you. Hopefully she understands that I'm resilient enough to take that kind of backhanded compliment!

Himoutdoors - Feel free to thread hijack. Oh you already have! Only ribbing you, it's always interesting to see how others cope in similar situations, it's the only way to learn how to deal with your own.

Keepithidden You sound like a very nice bloke and i really really hope that things get better for you.
Is she becoming more open to the idea of counselling do you think?

Sorry for TMI but going by experience with my ex OM we did both quickies and sessions with longer foreplay.
I liked both for different reasons. The quickie is that "Ive got to have you now" kind of passion . But for full satisfaction and orgasm i tended to need longer foreplay. I really hope you can find a way through this. I know how soul destroying it is.

Op,

Just a few things that have worried me...

Whether unconnected to this issue of yours or not, do not allow suicidal thoughts. You have young children who will carry the scars for life if their dad checks out rather than sees them grow. You brought people into this world, you have a duty of care to them, do not take the easy way out of those repsonsibilities.

Do not order dodgy drugs from the Internet. It's dangerous, as are any thoughts about chemical castration.

And when you're in a relationship that has issues, one of which is half a dozen instances of sex in the last 5 years, do not have the snip! Oops, too late.

Good luck Op, you do indeed seem like a nice guy, possibly a little too nice.

Have any of you read this thread?

There are some massively eloquent discriptions of the frustrations and irritations of being the mother of small children. And why "helping" with those is not a seduction technique.

Plantsitter I agree with you 1000%:

"Being a SAHM with 2 preschoolers is fucking relentless, it really is. The demands are emotional and physical and it's almost impossible not to have some time in any given day/week/whatever to feel like a servant. Someone asking you for sex when you don't feel like it makes you feel like there is yet another service to provide "

My youngest is 14 and I STILL remember the exhaustion of the relentless demands. And yes, it was ANOTHER demand.

But: that is YOUR reality, as it was mine.

I had the ability to see that although that was my reality, it wasn't his and HE MISSED ME. So I tried to the best of my ability in that reality to be his friend, because he was my friend and he was doing his best for me too.

It did absolutely nothing for me! So what. That wasn't the point. I knew I loved him, I loved sex with him and why biologically it wasn't doing it for me at that time. A spot of KY jelly and being there for my friend, 10 minutes out of my day. No big deal.

And he accepted the compromise, telling me he missed me. Come on guys, lets be kind here.

I agree with wobbly. A relationship can't just be two people who live alongside each other in their own reality, neither caring for what the other is going through because it isn't their own experience.

I have experience both full time care of a preschooler and long standing sexual rejection from a partner. Both were their own special kind of horribleness, both frequently reduced me to tears. Both would have been bearable with a partner who loved me and was kind and who was prepared to step into my world for at least a short time.

If there isn't mutual help and support and willingness to occasionally do things you don't much feel like to increase your partners happiness, then what is the bloody point of it all?

If you actually have sex a lot it will be good and will help with the stress of looking after the children.The more you have sex with each other, then you will want it more and more. It shouldnt feel like a chore, and the man shouldnt have to ask for sex as that would be highly unerotic, and no wonder the woman doesnt want to do it. If you do lots of things together, and are affectionate then the sex often comes naturally.

a lot of good points being made here. i think that men should really pull their weight round the house before complaining about lack of sex. Put some effort before expecting some kindness back. There should be a virtuous circle of mutual support.....that is the theory as many couples start getting at each other and measuring who is doing what amount and the team work breaks down.

Helltotheno- i discussed that arrangement with DW (sadly) but she held back on saying let's do it. I think that I need a long uninterrupted period of me being really good, avoiding disagreements etc. before being able to say that is the right course....before throwing it all away.

Of course there will be peaks and troughs, one of you might have to be supportive for longer etc. I agree 'keeping score' is grim, but if its a good, loving, healthy relationship it should all even out in the end.

But I get the impression from my own experience and from what I read on these kind of threads is that often the partner who doesn't want sex just pulls up the drawbridge and won't talk about it, leaving the other partner confused and upset. That is emphatically NOT the hallmark of a loving relationship so if your partner won't talk about it then I question the fundamental value of a relationship like that. What other issues are they dodging?

OP would you show your DW this thread?

It might help start a proper conversation?

good idea to show thread. Possible chance of backfiring if DW thinks that the thread has ommissions/doesn't represent her properly.

I'm not sure that women don't talk about it. I do think they are often not heard, though.

himoutdoors - you could show her the thread I linked to up there and see if she identifies with what any of the posters are saying?

CoalDustwoman- good idea. I am certain that she will identify with some of the points. However, it would probably be a good way of sincerely acknowledging that the points have registered.

but she held back on saying let's do it. But it isn't about her doing it, she's already got the status quo she wants. It's about you deciding you're doing it. By all means 'be good' for as long as you see fit (sheesh, is that what you're reduced to, 'being good' like some kind of notional exam you have to pass or fail?!), but there are other ways to live. It isn't all one-way traffic. If her big thing is stability for the DC, make that happen, just make it happen under a different roof!

Anyway it's up to you, but I think exhaustively listing the various things she doesn't do and clearly doesn't want to do under any circs, isn't getting you anywhere and is probably making things worse for you ultimately, ditto OP.

Agree with Helltotheno

In my experience and from what I have read on many, many threads, people not merely don't talk about but refuse to talk about it. And that in my mind is where the rot sets in.

And if you are talking about it but 'don't feel heard' how about saying 'I feel very unhappy about this. I want us both to do something to make it better. I want you to come with me for counselling/talk about it'

And if he or she won't, then leave.

Better than putting up with some passive aggressive withdrawal of sex as 'punishments' for other transgressions or living with a partner who just doesn't find you attractive. Fine, if you are both asexual, not so fine if the end of sex is just their unilateral decision.

Do you mean posters say they are refusing to talk about it, or that their partners say they are refusing to talk about it? Did you read the thread I linked to, just out of interest?

I do agree with you that counselling should happen when there is a communication problem that the couple can't solve themselves. One of the partners should seek out and book the appointment and go, even if their spouse refuses.

Sorry, I should expand a bit on why I mention that thread and apologise to those women for using their stories. (And I am not intimating anything about their sex lives). It's just when I read that thread, it struck me how easily they could be the wives of the many male posters who start threads on here bemoaning their lack of sex, whilst saying ther wives won't talk about it.

I seem to be surrounded by women who are run ragged, with husbands who do not appreciate how much their lives have changed since having children whilst theirs haven't much, who don't have a moment to not be the go-to person and the place where the buck stops in terms of the family, with physical and hormonal changes that impact on their libido and months or years of not getting a good night's sleep. And the husbands think they have a problem with their sex life. No, they don't. That they don't see or hear what the real issues are is where the problem lies.

The big problem with these threads are that everyone comes at it with their own filters and I am no exception. I think it's probably best that I bow out now.

CoalDustWomanSun 14-Jul-13 20:01:16

I'm not sure that women don't talk about it. I do think they are often not heard, though

Yep Agree with this. On the few occasions i have tried to talk about it in RL i have had some of my friends say to me "well at least he isnt hitting you"
I have had a male GP say to me that as a woman i didnt need sex if i wasnt trying to get pregnant. See what i mean about the Madonna/whore complex in society.
When a woman is denied sex it is not taken seriously. To ignore me for years and then moan when i have an affair is like being angry when somone has picked up a toy you dont want to play with anymore (bad analogy as im not a toy obvs but couldnt think of a better one) and yet situations like this arent seen by the majority of the public as emotional abuse and it damn well should be. Loads of Mners on here can see what i mean and have said so when i have posted about this in the past but its a different kettle of fish in RL where women are seen as either sluts or frigid.

Nobody is obliged to provide someone else with sex. What matters is the willingness to recognise that another person might want sex and act accordingly, ie either work on things thru counseling or acknowledge that things aren't working and let the person go. What's not acceptable is to refuse to do anything about the problem and assume that should be fine for the other person.

darkest you were always free to leave but chose not to.

Back again.

Schmaltzing - Yes, there has been a decrease in spontaneity, something I definitely need to work on. I tried it this afternoon and had a positive reaction!

Yogii - No worries about the suicide thing, I recognise my responsibilities, it's the key thing that's stopped me over the past few years. It's also the big reason why my daydreaming involves my DW having an affair with the stereotypical perfect man (father, husband, lover, financially successful etc.). It allows me to drop all my responsibilities... Not going to happen though so don't worry. I hear you about the drugs too, it would need to be a legitimate source. I've looked into the options and know trusted sources. RE: The snip, yep too late, but it was for me as well as DW it's for the best anyway, I know that.

Coaldust - That's a long thread! I'll try and work through it.

Spero - If there isn't mutual help and support and willingness to occasionally do things you don't much feel like to increase your partners happiness, then what is the bloody point of it all? I agree, but I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Zingwidge - No I wouldn't show her this thread, there are almost certainly omissions, but I've also never talked to anyone in RL about suicide or the more personal stuff I've shared here. I wouldn't want to unless it came to visiting a professional (counsellor or similar). It would start a proper conversation, but not a helpful one (at least short term). The stuff I've shared here probably does need to be aired, but it's got to be a slow process over a time frame I'm comfortable with.

Coaldust - Please don't go if you have more to contribute, I have been stereotyped already on this thread and I'm happy to defend myself again if required!

The last couple of days DW and I have been showing more affection to each other and have talked a lot more (not necessarily about us, but we can get on to that). I feel a bit more upbeat about future prospects and it's been really useful having so many different inputs into this thread, Arsenal in particular has made me think a lot about my marriage, but others presenting the opposing view have given me hope too, I'm thinking of you Buffy and Surfing. So thanks to you all.

Got a spare room Helltotheno?