DW, marriage, communication, sex and stuff.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, I?ve posted in Dadsnet and Feminism already for advice regarding specific parts of my slightly dysfunctional marriage, so it?s time to bite the bullet and whack a post in relationships!

Bit of background, I?m male, DW and I have been married five years, together ten. Both mid 30?s, two DCs (2 and 4) and no sex life. I?ve considered and tried various anaphrodisiacs and been reading a lot about PIV/Feminism womens views of sex and got myself thoroughly paranoid about the number of women with disappointing sex lives and I think DW may be one of them.

I?ve tried to broach the subject a few times, but she says it?s tiredness/stress (understandable considering the young kids I suppose), I?ve asked whether she enjoys it when we do have sex, she says yes. I?ve even asked if she fakes it! She says no. Not sure whether I believe any of it because I know she wouldn?t want to hurt my feelings, and there does seem to be a big proportion of women out there who aren?t happy.

I help around the house as much as I can (still got to buy a copy of Wifework to make sure I?m covering all bases) and I think we split things pretty equally despite me being fulltime working and DW a SAHM. She has the option of lie-ins at weekends (but rarely takes them), I try to do all the kiddy stuff at weekends to give her a break and cooking/cleaning in evenings is my responsibility most of the time too (she tends to do most of the laundry and cooking for the kids).
So I suppose the question is, how long should I wait before putting an ultimatum/suggesting counselling/ending the Marriage? (rhetorical: I know only I can answer that) I love DW and would do anything for her (have considered chemical castration at times), but this is getting me down and I?ve started having slightly suicidal thoughts which I know isn?t healthy. The constant rejection I could cope with if I knew what the reason was. Could be a case that counselling for me is required.

I think it all started about 5 years ago when we were TTC, after 1 year DW became pregnant and morning sickness put a kibosh on any intimacy, a year later we DTD once and number two came along, again Morning Sickness meant a nine month break, BFing extended this and it all fell into a rut so we?ve only DTD six times in the past five years! Putting that down in writing is quite shocking.

Anyway, DW has issues with her body post pregnancy. I find her sexy and attractive, but my constant reassurances fall on deaf ears (haven?t seen her naked for five years either). I think she may need some help to improve her confidence as nothing I can say changes it a jot. Not sure on the best way to approach this one, so any words would of advice would be good. I think once she?s happy with herself then we can talk more about what she wants out of life and whether she even wants me in it.

Sorry, this post is all a bit disjointed and I?ve probably missed stuff out but it?s cathartic to get it down even if this gets no responses!

[AnyFucker]

I think city means his dd ?

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

Ah, apologies, I didn't read it that way but see he could mean his DD is the best thing. Personally, I think his DD would rather have two happy parents. While we all make sacrifices for our children, we still have a right to our own happiness and he would clearly be a great dad who saw his DD a lot of the time.

[Wellwobbly]

Keepithidden I was talking to WIVES.

As a woman and I wife I don't think women really understand how much men soothe, bond, express and 'find' themselves through sex. It is so sad how misunderstood this is!

How cruel is it of wives to shut themselves off from a person because 1. they don't understand that language, 2. they assume men are just like women and 3. they can't be arsed?

That is IMO selfish and unloving. AND it is against the marriage understanding. IF men agree to keep themselves only to one person, then the flip side of the agreement is that they get access to sex. I am not making this up I am stating a socio-historical fact so don't hate me or think that argueing with me will take this FACT and source away.

And the statistics support this, men who are married have more sex than single men, apologies to the distressed husbands here.

So, yes, go to counselling to address the issues, see where the hidden resentments/misunderstandings are, hopefully men will be more open to understand that women's reaction to sex is different from theirs (what does Dr Phil say? A man is a gas flame, a woman is an electric stove) but to deprive a husband of sex is deeply unloving thing to do.

[Keepithidden]

Arsenal - You're right it wasn't rip-your-clothes off at the beginning, not sure I've ever been that way, pretty sure DW hasn't either. That's not really relevant anyway. We did have a good sex life despite it not being as passionate as some, now we don't. It is interesteing how others who have been here have recommended I cut my losses, you're right, but there are others who recommend a different tack and I'd like to explore all avenues before going the route you recommend. If those fail, well then so be it and one way or another things will be over. I have looked on more male focussed fora and you're not wrong about the advice there. That was one of the reasons I chose Mumsnet to explore my/our problems rather than somewhere else!

City - I understand your behaviour perfectly, is there really no way of getting your W to understand how much pain and suffering you're going through. It seems very heartless and I'd be concerned about the image of marriage you're portraying to your DD.

Can I ask, how does your W respond during the "duty sex" times? I'm curious to know if she just lies there and lets you get on with it, or whether she gains pleasure at the same time? Feel free to ignore if that's too personal.

Wellwobbly - Interesting, and not without an amount of truth in it either. I struggle to reconcile the "get access to sex" bit though. I'm not sure that should be part of any contract, sex shouldn't be something done just to please your partner, it should be done to please your partner and yourself. I really don't like the idea of sex without wanting it and particularly from the womens perspective it makes me feel very uncomfortable, just a bit too much like rape.

Brief update - I had a chat with DW last night, suggested counselling, told her I wasn't happy and we needed to work on our marriage, explained that I didn't think the relationship template we were providing for DS and DD was very healthy and thought that lack of intimacy was a factor in my ongoing dispondency. She was very upset. Thinks I'm going to leave and didn't realise things were that bad. I tried to reassure her that I wanted to make it work and wanted her to think about what would make her happy (although she claimed she was happy) and what she'd like out of our relationship. I asked her about her sex drive and she said she still enjoyed it, but her libido was hiding.

She's quite good at taking blame and accepting full fault where none (or where shared fault) lies though and I truly believe there is no malicious intent there so hopefully my reassurances that I'm not about to up sticks have been heard. I've nowhere to go anyway, and can't afford to move out. The only option I can see if a seperation where on the cards is living in a tent. I've given her a few days to mull things over so we'll see what response I get..

[Wellwobbly]

Keep, when I was b/f and with a small baby, there is some hormonal switch that just goes off. On top of that, babies suck the life out of you. They are an overwhelming black hole of NEED. I was tired, mauled and absolutely not in any mood whatsoever.

So why should my husband, the man who got up at the crack of dawn and worked his nuts off to provide, suffer because that was my reality? Why?

This is where FRIENDSHIP comes in. He was my friend, who wants to see their friend suffer? I would be honest, and say: this is doing nothing for me, but I know you are unhappy without me. I would negotiate like a whore! Please don't kiss me too much. Don't touch my boobs. Don't try and turn me on. Please don't linger longer.

And he would moan gently 'when are you coming back to me?' which would let me know he missed what you say and what I agree with, hugely. That was a sentence of love, for me. And we knew, by the nth baby, that this wasn't personal it was temporary, it was a 'hump we would ride together, and the passion would come back.

That's how I know that the more sex you have, the better it gets The more you avoid it, the bigger the problem gets.

Communication, caring, humour.

[blueshoes]

Agree with everything Wellwobbly has said, even the negotiations. I had a gentle "make it quick" request. I agree the passion returns, in my case with a vengeance once my youngest was 5. It is a temporary blip and both parties can make accommodation to keep the sex life ticking over until the hormones can switch back on.

I also think that the less men have sex, the more they want it. It is the reverse for women: the less they have sex, the less they want it. Use it or lose it!

OP, I am glad your wife is not deliberately withholding sex, just that she did not think it was (rightfully) such a big issue with you. You are entitled to ask for more.

[2much2young]

wellbobbly your last post made me feel sick

[Keepithidden]

Well I can see you're not alone Wellwobbly, and I guess if folk are happy with that set up and it brings less grief in the long run (for a bit of short term discomfort) then who am I to judge? I'm not sure I could cope with those kind of negotiations though, I'm used to my partner wanting me in the same way I want them and a digression from that would be difficult for me to reconcile. There's nothing I find more of a turn-on than a woman also turned-on!

The world would be a boring place if we all agreed though, and the "use it or lose it" seems to be a recurring theme when it comes to sex, it's definitiely panning out that way for me at the moment. Still, it's been a couple of years since babies, and 18 months since BFing so I'm hopeful of a turnaround in DWs feelings. I have put it down to hormones before and she's still having miss timed periods, I understand these things can take years to settle down to the pre-baby levels...

[SanityClause]

Men are not different to women. They are just socialised to believe they are. Men do not "need" sex, any more than women do. FWIW, I was more highly sexed than DH early in our relationship, but less now. I have never felt I "needed" sex. "Wanted" would be the correct word.

When I married my DH, I did not sign up to be his Prozac, when he's in a bad mood, to "soothe" him, FFS! If he needs the soothing an orgasm brings, he can masturbate. If he wants cuddles, I am perfectly happy to supply these.

Who wants to have sex if it's a duty? And why would you want to make someone feel guilty for not wanting to have sex with you? What kind of crazy power trip is that?

Surely, it's best to take the pressure off. Do lovely things for her, without it leading to sex. Stop asking, stop making her justify her lack of desire. No one can make themselves want sex. They can, of course, make themselves have sex they don't want, but is that the sex you want? Really?

[Thurlow]

I agree that the more sex you have, the better it gets. Our sex life is not great, between having a small toddler and both working f/t. Generally if we haven't done anything for a while I'm actually less keen, but when we do get to have some time together a few times in a week I start feeling much more relaxed and have a great time.

The emphasis on men vs women and sex is misleading here, IMO. What's at the core here is a difference between the two partners in a marriage and their interest in and/or need for sex. I've seen the effect this has had on a close friend where it is the DH who has very little interest in sex, and it's not pretty.

The OP is missing physical intimacy and sex with his wife. There is nothing wrong with this at all, nothing inherently male about it, just one person wishing they could be more intimate with the person they love and have committed their life to. Relationships are about compromise, and I believe that this includes your physical life together as well. The hopeful answer here is that the OP can get his wife to understand that he would like more physical intimacy than they have, and that might involve counselling.

FWIW DP would like a lot more sex than I do. I'm tired, I'm thinking about the house and DC, it's not a top priority. But I try and remember that intimacy is a priority for DP and so we try and find a solution that suits both of us. It's like you often see posts on the Pregnancy board from women worrying that they have no sex drive or find sex painful while pg, and worrying about their DH's response to this - the answer is always to be open and honest. Things don't change that much when you have young DC. But if it is just tiredness and busyness that is putting up barriers to sex, ideally a couple should be honest and talk about this.

[Keepithidden]

Sanity - I agree with most of what you say, but would take issue with these:

"If he needs the soothing an orgasm brings, he can masturbate. If he wants cuddles, I am perfectly happy to supply these." Sex is more than just an orgasm and a cuddle combined for me, it's like a much more intense form of bonding, something that can't be replicated by a wank and a hug.

" Stop asking, stop making her justify her lack of desire." When phrased like this, yes I agree, but asking her what she wants out of a relationship that is generally also sexual, and trying to find out if there is a reason for her not enjoying a sexual life is what I was trying to do. Hopefully she didn't view it as an attack and implication that there was something wrong with her for being asexual (if she is) or lacking libido (with just me, or anyone) for another reason, I need to know if I've been doing anything wrong/badly before I can correct it!

[AnyFucker]

Who the Fuck is that person using her log in to post worrying shit like that ?

Where is Wellwobbly and what have you done with her?

[peteypiranha]

There must be something seriously wrong with the relationship if either party dont want sex. I dont believe this I was tired from the kids thing that goes on for years, if you were attracted to the person then you would want a frequent sex life.

[gertrudestein]

Am de-lurking to just say - Keepithidden, you sound like a very caring man. Similar to my DH in fact.

Like you, he is not comfortable with 'duty sex', even though he has a higher libido than me. I do have to make an effort though - I often don't feel like sex until we're actually in the middle of it, if you know what I mean. But I appreciate that it's important to him, and I want to make him happy, and also it is rather fun once you're doing the deed! The fact that he wants me to be happy makes it possible for me to have sex with him even when I'm not really in the mood - it would be entirely different if I didn't believe he truly cared about me, my pleasure and my happiness and expected sex anyway.

I think it's right that you talk about it with your DW and hope she understands how it affects you. It's not fair of her to take it all on as a 'woe is me, my husband is demanding sex' issue though ( - not that she necessarily will, just that it sounds like it's a possibility she'll turn this round to be about her instead of about both of you). I hope she respects you for talking about it reasonably and understands that this is a part of your relationship you both have a responsibility to work through together.

I know a lot of this has been said, I just wanted to chip in and give you some support - you sound like you've got a good relationship founded on care and love and I'm sure you can work it out.

[arsenaltilidie]

I'm totally against the idea of the wife providing a 'duty' of sex to the husband.
When your wife is attracted to you, sex is never an issue other than finding time.

The reason i asked about the begining is If the spark wasnt there in the begining, it rarely ever surfaces..

The cynical me thinks you got together when her clock was ticking and she pretended (to you and herself) that all was well until you had children.

I would love for you to prove me wrong and update us how things have improved for the long term.

[DuelingFanjo]

"I help around the house as much as I can"

double it.

I know that is a bit sarcastic but I honestly truly believe that when a man says 'as much as I can' they most often mean 'as much as I want'

nothing is less sexy than a man who thinks housework is beneath him but is prepared to allow his wife to do it.

[AnyFucker]

Op, I agree that you sound like a good bloke

Best of luck

[CityTiliDie]

Keepit. No its not too personal so in answer to your question. at the start she basically 'lies back' until she 'gets in the mood' (hate that phrase but cant think of any other way to put it) Once we have started she says she does enjoy it and does orgasm 99% of the time. And B4 you all jump in about faking it she does not. She is too truthful to do this and there are other things to prove she 'gets her satisfaction' that are too TMI but trust me she enjoys it.

She just never wants to DTD. SHe has no sexual thoughts during the day, evening or night. She does not like talking about it and hates watching any sexual activity on the TV. Its just a big no go area.

We did have a better sexlife before we married but it died within weeks, DD didnt arrive til 8 years into our marriage, she was planned, wanted and very very loved. Dw has suffered severe depression but is doing well ATM and we have been through shit and hell together and I wont give up on her or DD for the sake sex however much I hate it and it depresses me.

When I say I wont give it up that does include DW as she is an amazing person, mother, friend etc etc. We have a great life apart from the sex and its something I am slowly trying to learn to live with.

Would I rather have this life forever? Or should I give it up in the hope of finding something 'better'? Having been in that situation B4 when my first DW left me for a 'good mate' after 15 years, knowing the pain I went through then and how it affected me then Yes I would rather have this life, a happy wife and a DD in a million.

Sorry Keepit, I'm rambling.... its the heat. We're not used to it up Norf.
Good luck and just know you are not alone there are quite a few of us out there. We are not all insensitive neanderthal manchilds. And thanks to all the other understanding sensitive replies we do appreciate your time you take to read and reply.

[Darkesteyes]

Ive been reading this thread but didnt know whether to post or not. My DH hasnt touched me for 17 years. After 7 years of no sex or affection at all i had an affair.
I get VERY fed up of stereotypical attitudes that its the women who go off sex Believe me it isnt always the case. I lost ten stone on a serious healthy eating plan I asked him to go to counselling and he refused.
I had an affair that lasted for 4 and a half years.
Some would say thats wrong. I can see why people would say that. But it has certainly shown me that society has a bit of a Madonna/whore attitude when it comes to women and sex.

[Darkesteyes]

Keepithidden and City i know what you mean about trying to live with it.
Do you find that you cope with it on some days better than others? Thats how it is for me. i can be ok for a while and then something will trigger a memory of the affection i had with OM and then i will become very depressed and weepy.

[Solari]

May not be relevant at all, but just a thought. Do you have different ideas about what kind of sex you find enjoyable?

I've always been very into sex as an intimate experience and expression of love (so lots of kissing, stroking etc). The ex in question, however, very much wanted a more porno-like experience. Uncomfortable positions, dirty talk, and endless complaints about me not making enough noise, not doing this, not doing that.

Sex became a chore all around, a performance for him rather than anything I actually enjoyed, and after not very long I grew to hate it. Any time I tried to talk to him about it, he would try every persuasive tactic in the book to make me believe there was something wrong with me, that was how everyone enjoyed sex, etc. etc.

Might it be worth talking with your wife about what would make the experience more enjoyable for her? Does she ever fantasize about sex? What does that picture look like if she does?

[AWarmFuzzyFuture]

This is a key point OP: If the spark wasn't there in the beginning, it rarely ever surfaces..

There must be reasons why both of you were happy to embark upon a relationship where the sexual aspect was lacking.

Of course you should try to improve things but I think that you should be very aware that five years is a long time: any improvements will most likely to be short lived and this (no sex, sporadic unsatisfying sex) is the default position.

Sorry to present such a gloomy point of view.