Contacting the OW? Do I?

[3HotCrossBuns]

I am a regular - lurker more than poster - but the time has come for some MN wisdom of my own. In a nutshell, my H disclosed his affair with a work colleague to me nearly 10 weeks ago. His confession was due to having been discovered at work and both of them losing their jobs. He had to tell me to explain why he had lost his job. He knew this was coming for 3 days before telling me so had deleted all evidence (much of the affair had been conducted via work emails rather than text anyway. And he was careful through out). He also told me that he met with her after discovery at work to get their stories straight for the possible investigation. But that they didn't discuss their stories to other halves.

Since D-day he has tried to give me 'full disclosure', gone complete no contact with OW, respected my need for space and then been around when I needed to shout at him, been very hands on with the DC, is apologetic and remorseful etc etc.

However I am struggling with the lack of evidence to back-up his story. I can't access his old work emails, the texts have gone (mostly immediately upon receiving/sending them as he's never hidden his phone) and most of their lunches/drinks were paid in cash so no card or bank records. Obviously he is a very proficient liar as I had no real suspicions of the affair - I had other concerns but did not believe he was cheating.

Basically the only source of info/evidence I have is her. And thats not likely to be 'accurate'. Do I call or text??? She is also married but no DC. Her DH doesn't know. Given that there has been no contact (well that I know about!) is it better to let sleeping dogs lie?? I'm tying myself in knots - have called her number several times but either she hasn't answered or I've hung up.

Any views on what to do for the best? I know I need to get 'closure' on the details of the affair before I can move on.

[3HotCrossBuns]

So we have managed half a conversation this afternoon whilst the kids were watching a movie. He truly believes that he is taking responsibility for his behaviour with regards to the affair - he likens our marriage to a body with broken limbs with the affair being the arm, the issues between us (no our marriage wasn't perfect before and I accept this) as another arm and his issues re upbringing, self esteem, drinking etc as a leg. He says the second arm and leg didn't cause the affair arm to break - that was him - but that all the limbs have to be repaired for our marriage to get better in the future. I kind of get what he is saying.

I tried to explain that the infidelity has made me feel unloved which he totally gets and is very sorry about. And I said that his defensiveness towards my anger just reinforces this feeling in me. And makes me feel that his remorse isn't real. We were just getting to this when were interrupted by the DCs so we've agreed to carry on from that point later this evening.

He has been basically dry from alcohol now since D-day. There has been the odd occasion (about 3) where he has had a glass of wine or 2 with me but that's been it. He appreciates that his drinking was part of his problems and has stopped. I think there have been plenty of times when the stress of this has made him feel like having a drink (it has me - lots of wine consumed!) but he has resisted.

The money issue is in the back of my mind. My family is not rich enough for him not to work but it gives us a 'cushion' for a few months. Which I am grateful for. I am wondering about asking him to sign a post-nup agreement which will penalise him if we split due to his infidelity but I understand they are incredibly difficult to enforce - esp as infidelity is v hard to prove. But I guess it will show some of his motivations by his response to such a request.

It's all just so incredibly difficult. I agree that our holiday will make a big difference - to me at least.

[Fairenuff]

I knew he wouldn't go for an sti check. That shows how much disregard he has for you op.

Stop listening to his words and look at his actions. They are telling you all you need to know.

[MadAboutHotChoc]

You both are jointly responsible for any issues and vulnerabilities in the marriage and only HE is responsible for his own issues and choices.

No marriage is perfect - all relationships have ups and downs so what is he going to do next time there is a dip?

However, addressing boundaries and vulnerabilities (read Not Just Friends if you want to know more about this) is a good idea but this should be done once he has proved that he really is committed to changing - through actions, not just words.

[MadAboutHotChoc]

Also I think he is trying to distract you from the real issue...and that way he won't need to do much work

[3HotCrossBuns]

So long chat tonight over dinner. It took a lot of effort but I finally got to a place where I got some enlightening answers. And God, it's all about him as so many of you wise posters have said! He's not motivated in 'tolerating' MY controls (I noted there not HIS controls) of his freedom by helping me heal and regain some trust. He's just putting up with it for the time being. My well being is not his primary driver . He even uttered the cliche line at one stage if he does love me 'but is not in love with me'. The really frustrating thing is that he doesn't realise that what he is doing isn't true remorse - he still defended his actions and thought processes as being entirely legitimate. He just doesn't get it. God knows what he is doing in therapy. Or maybe it hasn't been long enough. I don't know. All I know now is that I have to gather my strength and try to work out an exit strategy. I don't know where to start with that at the moment. I'm so so gutted - for me and my DC. At least I'm not confused anymore though. And I no longer have much desire to contact the OW for info!

Thank you all for taking the time to post and for making some tough points that I needed to hear.

[LookingForwardToMarch]

OP this man is poison. If you had let him he would have dragged you and your dc's through hell everytime he felt like it.

I can't believe what selfish things he has said to you! He can't even be bothered to try to fake remorse convincingly can he?

But on a positive note I am so so glad that you have seen his true colours and know you are worth more! God I wish my mum had had the balls to do it!

It will be hard, and he will try to stick like a limpet I imagine, but you can do it OP!!!!

[Bogeyface]

Are you 100% that he is actually going to therapy? And if you are, are you sure he is telling the truth?

I would bet a weeks wages that the answer to at least one of these questions is "no".

It is all about him, so now you need to make your future all about you. And I knowyou will :)

[Bogeyface]

forum2.aimoo.com/narcissisticpersonalitydisorder/THE-TARGET-Healing-and-Surviving/Quizzes-Are-You-Involved-with-a-Narcissist-1-223137.html

[3HotCrossBuns]

No he's so deluded he truly believes that this is what real remorse looks like.
And I haven't actually done anything yet so don't congratulate me on my balls prematurely. I'm going to give myself a week or so to get myself together before starting anything. I am so so sad though. And the outcome will be that he tried everything to save our marriage but I was too angry and couldn't get over his affair. I just know it will always be my fault

[LookingForwardToMarch]

The balls are there op, I have every faith in them

From what info you have given us there really is no chance here. He can't break the cycle while he thinks like this, and it is too much effort for him to change. He will erode you away, and carry the cycle onto your dc's.

In all seriousness though it does not matter who he manages to convince, YOU will always know who was at fault.

It isn't your completely justified anger...

It's more to do with that selfish and deluded dead weight hanging on your shoulders.

[3HotCrossBuns]

I'm sure he's going to therapy. I've seen the lady's website and his texts with her arranging the next session. Plus he tells me what they have discussed whilst there. There's no way he is able to come up with all that stuff by himself. However as it is just him presenting the issues he wants I doubt he's been entirely honest - either with the counsellor or with me. In any event he has got a lot of issues to work through but that's his problem not mine and I'm going to try to remove myself from the 'fixing him' mentality I was stuck in.

[laeiou]

If I may, I'd suggest that you stop thinking about him and start thinking about yourself. I suspect you've not done that for a long time so it may not happen without trying.

I suggest you go on holiday without him. You're so close physically that time away from him can only help you concentrate on yourself.

Nothing that you've written suggests to me that your life is better with him in it. I imagine that's difficult to agree with at the moment, but there it is.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

His perspective isn't accurate, his insights are distorted like trick mirrors at a funfair. He may believe he is telling it like it is but fgs he sits there talking glibly about your marriage being like a sick person and his guilt apparently accounts for only a small percentage? Was the head or brains of that sick ailing body a stuffed cabbage or did that have any control whatsoever over what that unfaithful dick did?


Sorry OP you sound so nice and you really deserve better. Glad you can see the flimflam for what it is.

[OrmirianResurgam]

Stupid, vile man. So glad he's getting the bum's rush. Good luck xx

[3HotCrossBuns]

So far I've withdrawn from him - barely spoken since Sunday night over than small talk re the kids, not spent any length of time in the same room etc. He knows something's up as this is not like me and has bought me cups of tea, cold drinks etc. He's still doing lots of chores and childcare. I'm not terribly interested really - the 'physical' care just means he thinks he's doing the right sort of things, he's totally missed the point of 'emotional' care. He's not asked me once how I am after Sunday night's chat when he said that whilst he loved me, he was not in love with me. Which tells me all I need to know

I've been thinking lots and can't really begin my thought process of how to get out of this relationship. It's the summer holidays now for the children and I'll take them to my mother's place for August as planned. I know I don't want him there. However I don't want him in our house for 4weeks unsupervised and with access to all our (and mine) financial docs. I can't legally prevent him from being here either though. So I wondering whether I go down the 'I need space' route until Sept when I ask him to leave formally? I'm also worried I'll change my mind if I leave it too long. And I'm worried about the DCs - feels mean to take them away from him for 4weeks (for them, don't give a shit about his feelings). I appreciate that it's going to be very very difficult and never a good time. I'm not sure what the first step should be.

[Phalenopsis]

On a practical level: I think you should make copies of all financial documentation regardless of what happens between you.

As for the children: whilst I don't agree with using them as pawns (not suggesting that you were going to), he didn't exactly think of them when he was having his affair did he? If making them happy involves taking them away for 4 weeks then do so. I'm aware that sounds harsh but you'd planned to take them to your mother's so...?

[3HotCrossBuns]

All financial documentation?? There is lots - obv bank accounts (my current, his current, joint, savings each), credit cards, mortgage, pensions for both of us but also share portfolios, ISAs, premium bonds etc. Is it enough to make a list of all of with relevant account numbers and current valuations?

The kids are very used to seeing him every day but are also used to not seeing him during the week, esp in the hols when I've taken them away to my mother's before. But he's always seen them at the weekend and they understood it was because he was at work. Which he now isn't. I'm sure I will be able to come up with a reason, they probably won't make a big deal of it if we don't.

[MadAboutHotChoc]

I would go down the I need space route now - explain that its not the end but given his revelations, you need to think about what you want and you can't make a decision with him hanging around being so ambivalent. This is also your last chance of saving the marriage - loss is the ONLY thing that motivates cheater, it might be the thing to help him "get it".

As he is so ambivalent, I wonder if his contact with OW is more involved than he says it is?

[MadAboutHotChoc]

Olgaga's blog which provides info about finances

[3HotCrossBuns]

I understand what you are saying HotChoc, my IC said something similar this morning re being last chance to save my marriage and asking me to take the time to decide clearly whether I have reached the end. H was much more 'motivated' for the first 3-4 weeks whilst he was out of the home and thought I might not decide to 'try'. Since then he has been much more 'ambivalent'. I suspect he doesn't really think I will finish our relationship. Fear of loss really is the only thing that motivates, not love for the betrayed spouse

I have doubts re the 'contact' thing - he would need a secret phone or email account as I have visibility on his phone, tablet and home pc. Altho I had visibility before, just he was careful re deleting texts, his call log and his Internet history. Anyway I've told him I've deleted the app for his tracker today and am no longer checking his stuff - he is released from 'house arrest' as he put it. He has to want to help me with this process and I don't think he does at the moment, more he is tolerating my controls on him as he himself put it.

Not sure I can last until we go away though - he might have to go this weekend.

[3HotCrossBuns]

Thank you for link to the blog too.

[laeiou]

I agree- ask him to leave your home now so you can have some time to yourself, and keep him away while you're on holiday. Let's face it, he's done everything to his timescale so far, so he should agree to any request while he claims to be trying to make amends.

I suspect he'll change his tune when he realises that him pulling his weight with housework etc isn't resulting in you seeing the light about how magnificent he is. So asking him to leave now may be your best chance at getting him out. As an aside, it's probably better for your own emotional health to do things alone now, whether you split or reconcile long term. It feels like he's stopping you from having the thinking time that he had during the affair. You didn't know his intimate thoughts for long enough, why share yours with him now? And once you get used to him being gone I suspect you'll find the household runs smoothly without him.

Anyway, like you said a few days ago, you need thinking time this week. Look after yourself and let him do the same. Don't let his problems (accommodation etc) become yours - he's already given you enough to deal with.

[MadAboutHotChoc]

Re monitoring his phone /email etc, you need to stop this. Releasing him from house arrest is a good move as you cannot control his actions or thoughts - only he can and if he does contact OW, then so be it and you know where you stand.

(it doesn't mean he can't be transparent and that you can't snoop if you feel the need to).