Contacting the OW? Do I?

[3HotCrossBuns]

I am a regular - lurker more than poster - but the time has come for some MN wisdom of my own. In a nutshell, my H disclosed his affair with a work colleague to me nearly 10 weeks ago. His confession was due to having been discovered at work and both of them losing their jobs. He had to tell me to explain why he had lost his job. He knew this was coming for 3 days before telling me so had deleted all evidence (much of the affair had been conducted via work emails rather than text anyway. And he was careful through out). He also told me that he met with her after discovery at work to get their stories straight for the possible investigation. But that they didn't discuss their stories to other halves.

Since D-day he has tried to give me 'full disclosure', gone complete no contact with OW, respected my need for space and then been around when I needed to shout at him, been very hands on with the DC, is apologetic and remorseful etc etc.

However I am struggling with the lack of evidence to back-up his story. I can't access his old work emails, the texts have gone (mostly immediately upon receiving/sending them as he's never hidden his phone) and most of their lunches/drinks were paid in cash so no card or bank records. Obviously he is a very proficient liar as I had no real suspicions of the affair - I had other concerns but did not believe he was cheating.

Basically the only source of info/evidence I have is her. And thats not likely to be 'accurate'. Do I call or text??? She is also married but no DC. Her DH doesn't know. Given that there has been no contact (well that I know about!) is it better to let sleeping dogs lie?? I'm tying myself in knots - have called her number several times but either she hasn't answered or I've hung up.

Any views on what to do for the best? I know I need to get 'closure' on the details of the affair before I can move on.

Thank you for all your posts - very very hard reading. Contacting the OW to get some verification is probably not going to help is it. Everything is a huge great mess . I have hesitated over posting on here as I wasn't sure I was strong enough to read the replies.

He is (other than his infidelity!) a good man - always there for me and the DC, very hands on dad and helpful husband around the home. I find it hard to believe he's actually a total bastard. Acting skills worthy of an actor

I don't know what to think or what to do. I desperately want to believe his 'affair story'.

He's not always there for you OP. Sometimes he chooses to be there for other women - have sex with them, tell them he loves them etc.

It must be so hard for you and you must so want everything to be ok. I really understand that.

But not only has he betrayed you on numerous occasions - easily and comfortably - jeopardising the future of his children (ie he didn't care enough about the potential of losing his job not to fuck her) - he is now getting a bit huffy about you continuing to find his lies and sexual infidelity difficult.

As for the acting skills - people can compartmentalise. Sometimes fucking another woman makes it easier for the betrayer to go home cheerful and helpful.

The foundations of your relationship are a mudslide of lies.

One thing life has taught me.

A man can be an amazing father, a brilliant friend and an (on the surface) attentive husband and lover.

And still screw everything that isn't nailed down.

Unfortunately that is true of alot of men.

Looking is right.

STBX was and is a far better father than my exH who was utterly faithful (probably because cheating took a bit of effort.....). He was also caring and loving towards me in a way my ex never was. Didnt stop him shagging several exes during our marriage.

Be prepared to be even more confused if you do because she'll probably tell you a load of lies. That depends on whether she wanted to make a new life with your husband or if she was just having a bit of escapism too. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

If you do speak to her though, make sure she knows that there are no chains on him, you aren't suicidal and you can live without him. Just so he can't make you responsible (to her) for his actions.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to respond to this thread - after all I'm an Internet stranger and there's no need to be a 'friend' as it were.

Onefewernow - wow, 20 months on! You must be very strong to have stuck through this shitty shitty process. I'm just over 2 months in and feel overwhelmed by it all.

Hotchoc - no paperwork other than the compromise agreement. A good friend of mine who's an employment lawyer did it for H so I trusted his advisor.

Bogeyface - yes his ego does seem rather important to him!! He's clearly got a lot of issues going back a long time. I've had 1 session with an IC who said I've been the solid wife in the between of all his fucked-upness. I clearly can't carry on like that though - H says that this affair was the ' worst' of his behaviour (ie it's the only proper affair) and that he has shocked himself. He never wants to be like that again.

AirofHope - I'm terrified of him getting a new job! He won't work with the OW again (she was 'just' a secretary so no need for their paths to cross again) but he had a secret world that I wasn't privy to at work and I will not be able to 'police' him there in the future. Without giving too much away he won't have been too worried about financial stability as my family are well off and I have an independent source of income. This is part of his issues as he's never felt 'good enough' for me or a 'real' father who provides for his kids. All nonsense in his head, not our reality. Not helped by his father calling him a gold digger shortly before our wedding

Lemon - it's been a horrific rollercoaster here and I've been vile so I'm not sure I've made it that easy for him. He could have walked so far but he's stuck with it.

I too am doubting the foundations of our relationship and querying why he married me in the first place. Horrible feeling. Our marriage wasn't perfect before this (which marriage is??!) and I do feel that I've enabled him to behave badly and not given him enough support or attention over the stressful times in our marriage.

Anyway I'm realising that I'm not going to get the answers I want from the OW and that that's not the way to make the distrust go away. Feeling stuck really. Thank you all again for taking the time to post.

You are still in a state of shock, way too early to be getting over it. Two years is the bench mark that most people give and I am over 4 years down the line and small things can take me right back to that time unfortunately (my DCs did a show at the weekend and sang a song that was on the radio all the time when I made the discovery - my DH was very concerned about me but it was just a slight wince).

Affairs don't happen in a vacuum, I am sure your H displayed many dubious behaviours that you have excused for a quiet life. One of the hardest things for my DH to acknowledge was that he wasn't merely a liar to me, he was also deceiving and manipulating others too. If you don't acknowledge it, you cannot change it.

One of the things that therapy did for me was to make me understand where my boundaries were lacking and just how bad behaviour I was prepared to put up with (due to my childhood and the example set to me by my mother ). DH also had a very dysfunctional childhood with a very domineering grandmother and taught himself to lie at a very young age so as not to upset said grandmother (who lived with them). His default position was to lie and manipulate (grandmother was a master of manipulation). These are reasons, not excuses - we were both co-dependent.

My DH stayed with his parents for about 4 months after discovery and in this time, we "dated", we did therapy etc.

You really do need to focus on you, you have to change the way you react to him, put yourself first, take up a long forgotten hobby (I took up horse riding again, to get me away from the house, DCs and DH, now the proud owner of a grey mare who costs DH a fortune but he understands how important it is to me).

Our therapist really worked on me to change me and my boundaries, for me to understand myself and why I allowed him to treat me as I did. I think change does start with you, whether he will change with you remains to be seen but if not, you will have changed enough not to want to put up with him and his behaviours and do what is necessary for you and your DCs.

Good luck.

Oh OP. you 'enabled him to behave badly'?

Rather like Nigella enabled Saatchi, by having a neck?

It sounds like you are very stuck, because you don't want to be open to the idea of admitting he's not a viable partner. Stuck because you don't want to leave him and want to twist yourself in any direction to avoid facing the possibility that he may never change.

You'd rather believe that it might have been your fault for not giving him enough 'support and attention'. You just seem so desperate.

Is this what you want to hear?:

It'll all be ok if you just stop neglecting the poor, lovely man, who is such a good dad. Stop giving him a hard time and, instead, work harder in your marriage to fulfil him. Then he wouldn't have to look elsewhere for sex and excitement.

Because if its all your fault then you can control this, right? And make it all ok?

You will never hear the truth from him. And it will very probably happen again and again, judging from what you've said.

Of course it's your business if you choose to stay with him. You just sound so powerless right now. I hope you take some power back.

CountingTo10 - your post is very thought provoking. So far it's all been about him and whether he can change, take responsibility, behave better. I've not considered whether I need to change what behaviour I will accept. I have recently taken up a new hobby (about a month or so before discovery) which is giving me much needed space away from the family home and the DCs. I'm almost fully recovered now and desperate to get back to it!

Lemon - I haven't been in the 'blaming myself' stage the whole time, just more recently and is the feeling that prompted me to start my own IC. I have felt like a stupid, blind fool though ever since D-day for not guessing about the affair. My concerns were related to his heavy drinking (I was trying to think of ways to get him to AA!) and his stress at work (he has a history in this area). Hindsight is a precious gift and I wish so much I had recognised some of his red flags over the last 5 years.

Look up co-dependency. Reading that your H is a heavy drinker (heavy enough that you want him to go to AA ) co-dependency and enabling springs to mind and you trying to fix and control everything.

This book is brilliant and was recommended by my therapist. My first H was an alcoholic and my DH had a gambling problem (more bad behaviour to be acknowledged), can't think why our therapist concentrated on fixing me .

Hey OP, I wonder if you could contact his previous place of work... I would be tempted. Speak to his ex-boss?

Find out what really happened. His story sounds way off. I would suspect it's a lot more lurid than he is letting on. From a HR point, this inter-office fiddling is RIFE, but an investigation? Thats a whole different ball game.

Good luck OP.

Hi Woodenpeg. I have thought about contacting his ex-boss but I suspect he will politely tell me to go away. I doubt v much he would disclose what's in the emails from a reputation point of view for the business. My H saw him briefly when collecting his belongings from the office and there was very little said then. My H says he doesn't know how much of the detail his boss knows anyway.

Counting - I wanted him to go to AA as drinking makes him unpleasant (understatement) and I've been on the receiving end of some nasty behaviour - only verbal, he's never been physically abusive. As his stress was increasing (he was truthfully having difficulties at work in January) so was the frequency and amount of his drinking. I wanted him to stop although I'm not sure whether he's an alcoholic.
H says (and has said historically) that I have 'control' issues - i.e. I'm always trying to control what he's doing - which is true, I do like him to be nearby etc and never been great about him disappearing for the day to do his hobbies or spend time with his friends.
I've never thought about codependency etc with regards to me. I only ever thought I was trying to support him through some difficult times in the past.

OP reading through your thread, there are a few things that stand out to me (apart from the excellent advice you've already been given).

He claims they didn't 'do it' as he was so drunk he couldn't get it up even after much encouragement. Why would he lie about that - surely that's too embarrassing to admit to??

Firstly, this shows that he intended to have sex, the fact that he couldn't penetrate makes no difference does it? If he could, he would have. The fact that he thinks this makes it sound better just shows what little regard he has for your intellect. He is calling you a fool.

I get that the cheater has to take responsibility ( H is), make amends if possible (H is trying) and start to behave better in the future (can't say yet)

He is not taking responsibility. He is still lying to you. Even your counsellor told you you would never get the truth out of him.

He is not trying to make amends. Making amends would involve being completely truthful and not showing impatience or annoyance at your feelings.

Behaving better in future? Well we are now in what was the future and how is he behaving towards you. It seems that he is still trying to lay blame on you. He is getting fed up with you, after just 2 months, going on about it. He doesn't seem to really accept that he has to change.

He is (other than his infidelity!) a good man - always there for me and the DC, very hands on dad and helpful husband around the home

Actually, he is behaving the same way his father did. And you are behaving like his mother. So the two of you are doing exactly the same thing that caused him to need therapy. That is what kind of a dad he is.

it's been a horrific rollercoaster here and I've been vile so I'm not sure I've made it that easy for him. He could have walked so far but he's stuck with it

No, no, no, no, no!!! You have got this all the wrong way round. He has been vile to you. Did you cheat on him? Did you lie and shag around? Oh no, wait, that was him. All you did OP was express your hurt and anger, which you have every right to do.

You do not have to make anything easy for him. That is not your responsibility. He should be doing absolutely everything within his power to make life more bearable for you right now and continuing to support you over however many years it takes - forever probably.

He could have walked? He is lucky that you haven't walked yet. As soon as you are able to manage on your own, you should ask him to leave so that you can have some time and space to think about what you want.

He's not really taking you seriously.

Oh yes, and insist he goes for an sti check, and make sure he shows you the paperwork. I know he said he was careful but he's a liar and it's not worth risking your health over this. It would also send him a clear message that he should take responsibility and do what's right.

In fact, it would be a good test. Tell him it would put your mind at rest and see what he does. I bet you he doesn't go to the clinic. He won't even do that for you.

Yep

Exactly what Fair said

I know it shows he intended to have sex with her, he has never denied that. It's his response to me when I questioned why they didn't have sex on that occasion, esp as it was after the time he has confessed he had sex with her.

He is not blaming me for his infidelity, rather he's saying there were reasons he was unhappy in our marriage - some (but not all) of which he now recognises as being his issue rather than anything in our relationship. He says that nothing excuses his choice to be unfaithful. It's more me that is blaming myself. I feel like the wife of an alcoholic who constantly makes excuses for her husband's addiction and therefore enables the pattern of destructive behaviour to continue - that's what I see as my fault. Plus in my 'low' moments I can see that 3 small DC have distracted me from our marriage and him. That's not uncommon and from reading Shirley Glass seems to be a time at which marriages can be at risk of an affair.

He is feeling the effects of my anger, distress, anxiety etc and is on anti-d pills himself for his own mental issues. He's also had some tough counselling sessions himself. He wouldn't be human if he didn't get a little upset himself surely? He does consistently and regularly says sorry for causing this crisis and that he loves me. I think that he is trying to support me but that he has days when he finds life hard too.

I am terrified if becoming my MiL in all of this!! We have discussed how responsible we feel towards our DC and how to 'protect' them from this. I do not want them taking the message that infidelity is ok - they are young and our oldest is really the only one (so far) affected by what's happening. We don't have any answers though.

I'm not sure whether he's still lying to me about his 'affair story' or not. He's been consistent on what he says happened. Given he's a proficient liar I don't believe or trust him - not surprising and I doubt any betrayed spouse feels otherwise. Hence my temptation of contacting the OW for some 'back up' facts. I hear the advice on here that to do so would not be helpful (at best) and potentially more damaging.

Sadly, he does not need to make excuses for his behaviour, you are doing that for him OP.

How to protect your children from the message that infidelity is ok? Show them. Show them that it is not ok.

That post got long - was interrupted by saying goodnight to the DC! Sorry.

Op I think you may be defending and minimising his actions far better than he ever could himself.

I hope things don't end up the way I sadly suspect that they will for you.

Wishing you the best op, take care of yourself and your dc.

Fairenuff - then the DC have to know he's been unfaithful which they don't at the moment. They are young and I doubt they'd understand. Also is it possible to give DC the message that infidelity is wrong without ending the marriage?
All they know at the moment is that daddy has been very naughty and has upset mummy a lot (this is what H told them).

At the beginning of all this I was in shock and very very angry. I absolutely did not accept any 'blame' whatsoever and H didn't even suggest it. It's been more recently since my accident when I felt useless and depressed I guess. Even doubting my parenting abilities and generally being very low so the doubts have crept in. I'm feeling very anxious, insecure and have had a couple of panic attacks. I'm hoping the IC will help the spiral of thoughts crowding my head.

OP have you spoken to any friends about this? You don't seem to be getting much support in real life. I realise you're affected by physical issues at the moment, and hope you recover soon, but you sound quite defeated and resigned to this being all you can expect, and wondering how to make the best of it. It's quite sad to read.

I am sorry OP, what a hateful shocking 10 weeks it must have been for you.

He says I can't worry about 'what if', we can only deal with what actually happened. Rather neat. Except what he does choose to disclose doesn't quite ring true. He didn't feel guilt during the affair and he doesn't sound very remorseful now, the therapy sessions will involve him talking about his favourite subject, himself.

I think that, coupled with you can't prove a negative when questioned about veracity of stated involvement, would be the signal to be very wary. If by being vile you mean you have been upset, suspicious, raging, sounds like a fair response to me.

Instant dismissal for kissing on the premises? Were they in Vatican City?

You look back to when you had care of your 3 small DCs and in retrospect, worry you had no time for him. Otoh he used your unlucky accident as the golden opportunity to step right back, be a model dad and husband, back in your bed too.

Going back to your original question, is it better to let sleeping dogs lie?? then no, I wouldn't contact OW, but I certainly wouldn't let this pivot round his needs, his role in your life - see where you stand, see what you want.

You have already given him second chances. If you accept this latest affair then there will almost certainly be more. Each time you agree to 'work on the relationship' you are accepting infidelity.

The dc will become aware of this as they get older, just as your dh did with his family.

Now, if you make a stand and ask him to leave he will have to face up to his consequences. He has to really and truly believe that you will not accept infidelity.

Even if you intend to stay with him, he doesn't need to know that right now. You need time to think about what you want. For yourself, regardless of him. You need space away from him to decide if you are worth more than he is offering - dodgy excuses, keeping secrets until he is exposed by someone else, lying, drinking excessively, looking at porn...

You do not have to have all these things in your life if you don't want them. Equally you can accept that this is going to be your lot. Either way he should move out and leave you alone to make some decisions about what is best for you.

Have you asked him about the sti check yet?

Op sorry was going to make that the last post but just had to pop in to say one last thing.

Infidelity was a part of my parents marriage. As much as you think they won't pick up on it they do.

Something you said struck a chord with me. When I heard that 'Daddy had been naghty and upset mummy' for the fourth time I knew damn well what it meant. And I was ten.

My mum didn't teach me that infidelity was wrong. No matter what he did she would end up defending him. Watching her destroyed every couple of years and then limping on was sad and made me rage.

For years I had major relationship issues with trust and men because of their marriage, dad was and is still a brilliant dad and nice man. But I kind of hate him a bit anyway.

Whoa sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread, that phrase you used just dragged up some very vivid memories.

Not that my mum was a saint...she had her a little fun too...but Id left home by then.

Theres something about the forced cheerful atmosphere in an unhappy house that makes you want to escape