Not really sure what just happened with DH

[Roundtheruggedrocks]

I got upset with DH last night because, once again, he didn't want to have sex. He says he's very tired/exhausted/just can't put the effort in right now (he is managing a stressful billion pound deal for various parties/clients, so responsibility all on him), even though I have asked him to make an effort with me to improve our sex life. I also ovulated last night and we had agreed while cuddling in bed that we were going to have sex, so I got ready for bed and came out to find him having left the bed and in the living room watching TV. He then turned all the lights off, said goodnight and turned over.

I (very calmly) pointed out that he had just said we were going to have sex. He said no I'm too tired and I got upset and said I really needed to have sex more than once every month (we are virtual newlyweds with no DCs) within our marriage because I loved the intimacy of it.

He then got extremely cross with me and started shouting. He said I made his life stressful and listed various jobs around the house I had not done (cleaning sofa covers, sewing buttons on his shirt etc) and told me I knew "nothing." "Nothing about sex, about relationships, about love, money, about hard work." He said he was trying to manage our lives and finances, protect and secure us money for the future after providing me with a great home and good life and here I was "offended," he was too tired to have sex.He carried on to say that I was not his equal, that being with me was like an adult being with a lazy child wanting her needs satisfied every day.

I told him that I had not accused him of anything I had just told him something I wanted and I understood how much pressure he was under and please don't make it so personal and bring our entire relationship into question, but the fuse was already lit (he has a tendency to go off on one once he's started.) so most of the night he starts accusing me of things - that I will definitely cheat on him because my sex drive is so high and he can't satisfy it. That I must be mentally unhinged. He then leaves the room and comes back in and tells me he's decided I'm depressed and I need help (I'm not.)

I recently got sacked from a job and lost one of my close friends and he turns both into something that is my fault - you're lazy, you don't work hard enough, your friend X is a shit friend, but so are all of your friends you can't rely on any of them - if you really want to put the world to rights, start with your shit friendships and forget your dissatisfaction about sex.

On and on until 4am.

He provides everything and works very hard. I do work (did until I got sacked last week) and I am not lazy, although I admit I am not the most practical person on earth.

At 4am once his stream of consciousness/accusations have run out, he starts poking me under the covers and pulling my knickers down. Now, of course, is not the time I feel like having sex. So I say no and he uses that as yet more fuel for the fire of my "fickle, satisfaction-based personality."

Have woken up this morning and feel like I'ce been hit by a bus. What do you think has happened?

Jan, as respectfully as possible - you ARE profecting. Your situation is not comparable and it is coming across like you are minimising a very serious and dangerous situation. That is what hers is.

Also why comment so forcefully if you haven't bothered to had the chance to read all the relevant bits of info?

You make it sound like she was bullyinh him for sex. That certainly wasn't the impression I got. She tried to discuss ONE aspect of their marriage she isn't happy about and was kept up till 4am being shouted at. And it has happened before. How can you say that sounds like a normal marriage / most couples? I certainly don't think so!

*projecting, profecting is not a word!

There is a lot of minimising of abuse going on lately in the media and in society. And a lot of people buy into the minimisation because its much more comfortable than facing these issues head on.

Rugged Don't leave it too long before you go. Your DH has all the hallmarks of an abuser and you will get very confused and worn down by him - which will make it harder for you to get the confidence in yourself to leave. That would only get worse with time.

Make sure you get out a lot and speak to family and friends that are supportive and boost your self-confidence. He will do everything he can to erode it and gain control/power over you. Expect to feel confused and don't let it throw you. The nice/nasty is part of the abuse.

rugged my DH and I had issues with me wanting sex and him not, including when we were first TTCing, and yes we did have some rows. However our rows were nothing like you've described, and my DH certainly never tried pulling my knickers off at the end.

We've come through because despite our issues he never gave me any reason to think he didn't respect and value me, and he was open to proper communication and counselling. I don't want you to think that I'm being smug, I'm trying to say that IF this was just a stress/sex drive issue like some people have suggested, then that doesn't add up to EA/ltb. What you're describing is so far beyond 'poor diddums being asked for a shag when he's under pressure' it's unreal - and IMO ticks all the EA boxes.

Good luck with your next steps.

I hadn't realised you were the same poster with the strip club thread.

I've never seen such a text-book example of so-called Madonna/Whore complex. I feel rather frightened by merely hearing that you're married to such a man. It must, indeed, be a headfuck for you.

May I ask, have you noticed he's more horrible to you when you've tried to initiate sex? When men truly do live with this dichotomy in their heads, they perceive sexually available women as subhuman, disgusting, and - by virtue of having sex with them - contaminating the man. Violent rapists often (usually?) fit this profile and men like this are the punters who beat prostitutes up. The obverse side of 'Woman' is an idealised princess, impossibly pure and perfect. Perfect women have (perfect) children, but should not be contaminated by sex - hence the reference to 'Madonna', who notoriously managed this feat. Your husband shows signs of needing to reduce you, in his mind, to disgusting vermin in order to fuck you. If you get pregnant, it's actually possible he will hate you for showing signs of having had sex. Women who stay married to such men achieve it by playing their role as a sexless, ethereal goddess. They get gifts instead of respect, affection or intimacy. You may have seen them hovering on pedestals, dripping resentment and diamonds.

I don't think you have a 'normal' abuser here; I think you have something more sinister and seriously screwed in the head. It's clear he aims to isolate you from your support network - and, having already caused you to become unemployed, he works fast. I expect you'll be pregnant in record time, too, not necessarily through consensual PIV. Most men with this 'complex' can keep up a pretence of loving sex long enough to make a baby, but not yours by the look of things :(

You must be quite something, OP, to have matched his 'Madonna' standards. No wonder he was thrilled to have "got" you! Weirdly, since I believe your husband to be very dangerous, I'm not going to exhort you to LTB ASAP. This does depend on your character. If you're suited to confrontation and manipulation, can execute finely-judged humiliations of a potentially violent man, handle lonely pregnancies and domestic perfection - and if you can turn a blind eye to his sexual exploits while having none for yourself - you might be able to make a career of this style of marriage, which is the only way to make them work.

But, if you were such a person, you wouldn't have posted here, would you?

I'm aware this post must be alarming to read, and perhaps seem ridiculous. If you're going to take time thinking about what to do, may I offer some advice? Play bland. Be lovely, but vague and boring. Sew the fucking buttons. Keep your log/diary, but for heaven's sake keep it very safe. Carry on posting here if you can. All the best: stay safe. x

garlicnutty that is a brilliant post.

"it takes preparation to leave a marriage, especially one that had only just begun."

It takes less preparation if you do it now than if you stick around hoping things get better for a few years. I don't know how old you are, if there's any element of thinking he's your best shot at having children, that kind of thing?

Rugged, How long have you been married? How did you feel on your wedding day?

A lot of women who are divorced have said to me " I knew I was making a mistake on the wedding day", "We argued on the wedding day"...

I find it quite staggering that so many of us are answering the same thing. Namely: run for the hills.

Do you have family or friends who could help if you were the one to move out?

Have you thought if keeping a diary of all his niceties? I can imagine he will make you out to be this horrible person when/if you do leave, so a diary would maybe help you retain your grasp of reality, rather than his twisted version of events.

As for leaving, after 5 years one morning I grabbed a duffle bag a few black bin bags and off I went. (and then I met the right guy for me and married him...) I wish you a lot of courage and a speedy exit.

Thank you for all your very supportive and understanding messages. You have made me realise a lot of things that should have been obvious to me already - but I put them down to admirable qualities (eg mistaking rigidity for integrity, or hard lines on what I should and shouldn't do as solid principles or "wanting the best" for me.) It is very hard to distinguish between them.

DH told me to take a hard line with my job and threaten to leave if they didn't meet my requirements (eg more money, different working hours,) they called my bluff and suggested I went elsewhere, so that's how I became jobless. I have set up another 2 interviews for this week because being without my own money scares me (even though DH gives me full access to his account) fitting into your protected princess role right?!

The poster above, began with G, addresses the madonna whore complex and said that I need to start logs to show myself I am not going mad. She is totally right. So much of the controlling behaviour appears to be "for my own good." And he is extremely good at making it appear like he only wants the best for me. eg, he is extremely affectionate with me - it appears that way to everyone AND me that he seemingly adores me. It's very hard to bring up issues with sex when he can come back and say "when do I ever take my hands off you? When am I not cuddling you and kissing you?" And he's right, he's all over me all the time, at home and in public, but there's barely any actual sex.

He is very clever and that's why evidence is important, hard evidence to shatter this image he has created. Last night while he slept I looked through his phone and didn't find much to my surprise. There were texts from women/past shags who had contacted him asking if he wanted to meet up and to all of them he had said sorry no, he is so in love and happy with me and he wished them good luck. The only suspicious thing I found was a text to a friend of his last June recommending him various rub and tug massage parlours in Asia. He had told me that before we were together that he'd been to these so it's not a shock that he's experienced it - and even if he has done it since our relationship, what is written on his phone is not evidence.

So he's faithful.... whoop-dee-doo.... that's a given He's still a nasty, controlling piece of work. You're a project, not a partner...

I am terrified of having a baby with him, stopping work and then being trapped. I so want him to understand me and for us to be close to each other. I love him and really thought he "got" me as a person.

We've been married for two years known each other for 3. I am 30 and he is 40.

On my wedding day I was incredibly happy. Intellectually we are very compatible.

He understands you all right. He understands just how far to push it and just what flannel to say to keep you coming back for more... He may even 'get' you, who knows? But he doesn't respect you, doesn't see you as his equal and simply uses you as a way to asset his own superiority. Like a malevolent Professor Higgins in Pygmalion....

8) Your partner treats you like an object, like property, not like a person with real feelings

15) You find yourself having to rush to his defense whenever he is brought up in conversation. You make excuses for his behavior regardless of the situation.

I see you are now recognising the sincerity of others worries for your safety.

Please now build a plan and LTB! I'm sure these ladies can help you do that.

Presently I'm concerned you recognise the issues but are procrastinating hesitating to do anything practical to leave. There is no point realising you are fat but doing nothing about dieting if you know your health is affected by your weight. Do you see? I feel you still seem a bit 'ostrich' about the issue.

He is isolating you too. Do your friends like him? Tbh he's really raising hairs on my arms.

Wishing you strength.

Intellectually you are not compatible. Clearly.

FFS. . go and get some counselling WITH your husband and see what is really going on with him. nobody here knows anything about you him or your relationship. . . just your view point. You will . . .nearly. . . always be told to leave him when you come on here looking for advise. get help in the real world. best of luck

No, get individual counselling for yourself to see how you have let yourself end up at the point of being frightened to have a baby with your husband

Joint counselling with a man like this would be a big mistake. He will twist it against you and leave you more confused than you were before

You need help, but not with him, and not from him

AF, I seem to recall that Round was seeing a therapist, who was useless.

a good councellor won't allow that AF. but of course they could always go individually to start with. leaving your marriage because strangers online think its wise. . . is just ridiculous.

Thank you for the compliment, Darkest.

Just, it's easy to see threads like this as leading to a poster leaving their marriage because strangers online think it's wise. You're right, that would be ridiculous.

The way I see it, any woman who was so easily led would be an extremely vulnerable individual. It would be dangerous for such a malleable person to be married to any but the kindest, wisest and most helpful man. You don't see many of such men's wives posting here! Okay, it does happen occasionally, and those posters are advised to chill out & enjoy their marriage ... yes, even on this forum

When an intelligent, normally independent, woman posts with confusion about her marriage, what do you think she's looking for? She can get 'there-there's and aspersions on her sanity from her husband, assorted other well-wishers and, often, dozy counsellors. Perhaps she's looking for fresh insights into why she feels confused, and why her husband acts in a confusing way. Members of this forum are practised in examining relationships, usually having been through a few themselves and with the benefit of much astute counselling. They try to share what they have learned, providing OPs with some of the insights they were seeking.

What the questioner chooses to do with the insight is up to her. But it's a bit insulting to say that people shouldn't seek insights in case they act on them, isn't it?!

... sorry, Round, I periodically reach a level where I have to answer one of these criticisms!

Round: Please use the wisdom of MN to your advantage.

I wouldn't have spent 30 years married to an idiot if MN had been around.
I always minimised and excused his behaviour and put myself second to him.
I was wrong.

Dackyduddles I didn't doubt or question anyone's sincerity. I find MN a really useful and educated forum to wrangle some of this stuff and believe in the sincerity of everyone on here (who is not totally bonkers - and there are a few of those!)

Re: Therapy, I have been seeing a therapist for a year, mainly focusing on my relationship with my father who is a bully and also abusive (surprise surprise!) In the 'plan' for our therapy which is longterm therapy, the present relationship dynamics I have are something to be looked at in the second half of the therapy otherwise it gets confused. So it's not that my therapist is missing massive red flags with my DH, but that we haven't got there yet. When I did bring the strip club incident up with her, it was more that she focused me back on a line of enquiry about my father rather than go off on a tangent about my DH. Treating the cause rather than the results. We will get to him.

I feel that LTB is difficult when I have no evidence of anything. Actual stuff he will acknowledge ranges as far as him going AWOL about three times in our relationship, usually in another country or city where for whole chunks of time I don't know where he is and don't hear from him. Obviously when I am out of contact for more than an hour he demands to know where I am and what I'm doing - and he of course does not acknowledge this hypocrisy.

I don't need DH to isolate me from my family. If I left DH without evidence and without a solid reason - DH, my parents and his parents would all turn against me. My cousin is already estranged from my parents now she is separated from her husband who cheated on her. They declared that "divorce doesn't exist in our family," and cut her out. At the time I was single and coerced into going along with their decision to cut her out otherwise, they said, I "wasn't on their side" - which I know now is utterly wrong.

I would really like DH to sew his own web of destruction with something so obvious and reputation-wrecking that no-one would blame me . Maybe that puts me in the "manipulative" virgin/whore category which Garlicnutty referred to.

At the base of it all is fear of being alone or for some reason not being right. If I leave DH and my parents cut me out there is no-one left. Somewhere inside there is a voice that tells me I have so much to be grateful for and here I am complaining about it.

It is hard when you have spent your life with people telling you what you think and feel (my father and now DH) rather than being able to think and feel for yourself. I have not known better or not known other options or ways of being until I started therapy last year and it's gradually unravelling.