Can I forgive this much deceit?

[alphacourse]

I am trying to figure out whether I can stay,have couples counselling, and try and work things out. Or....whether it is just too much betrayal and deceit. My mind swings between the 2 on a twice daily basis.

Background: DP has cheated on me with 2 women. He met with each one 4/5 times during my recent pregnancies. He has also met up for drinks with a few more. He met then through married affair websites.

I found out about the websites 10 weeks ago, and about the women 3 weeks ago. He followed the usual script of denial, deleting, minimising etc. Then I was contacted by a woman and he had to come clean.

He has started psychotherapy to deal with his issues. He says it was about the buzz of getting girls to be impressed by him.

How do I work out what to do for the best? Obviously he is desperate to work things out. I am prepared to listen at the minute. We have 3 DC. 2 are very small. Help me to make sense of this please!

cutitup - I can't take responsibility for that phrase! It was stolen from ChumpLady. It is exactly right though isn't it?!

I cleared out an old box a couple of days ago. I found a receipt for a hotel where he stayed with OW1. It was from when DC2 was 6 weeks old. When he wrote me a time line of what had happened there was a big gap between March and September where he said he hadn't met anybody. I queried why at the time, and he said we were busy with DC2 etc. But this makes that a lie too as it was in June! I also found a bank statement for the same period. All his other statements are at his office (for expenses - he runs a company). In this statement there were 4 payments in a month to Ashley Maddison (they don't say AM but show up in dollars). That was when DC2 was 6 weeks old too. It seems unlikely to me that he would pay at least £100pcm for these sites over 2 years but have affairs with only 2. I would like to know when this started. He says it was about the time we conceived DC2 - but the statements would confirm this wouldn't they?

You will never know the truth never. I got the itemised phone bills, the hotel bills, her side if the story. And still I doubt I got the truth.
I wouldn't waste your energy.

I agree with Mosman. I totally understand the desire to get to the bottom of it and to know everything - I tied myself in knots about what H wasn't telling me. Now I have reached a place of accepting that he will never tell me the whole truth - he strenuously sticks to his story but I just shrug and say I know there is more lies in my heart. Makes me indignant (which I quite like actually!). What's done is done and frankly both you and I know more than enough already! Whatever else is out there can only make a very bad situation even worse.

Makes HIM indignant I meant!!

3Hot - sorry I haven't replied yet, will do later.

That is the problem when they delete - can you ever get out of the discovery phase? The wanting /needing to find out? If they never tell all, doesn't that mean that they are still showing loyalty to the person they were? Or is it because telling all makes them face up to ho horrible they have been? I have got a quick chat with a counsellor scheduled for lunch time today.

mosman - if you have seen the paper trail what more do you suspect? How do you deal with the not knowing?

Because he was caught out five years after the first one I have serious doubts nothing went on between instigating affair one and finding number two on his doorstep I just don't believe he'd have just left it to chance there would have been more in between.
How I deal with it is simply not to give a shit any more. Our situations are very very similar and I have been exactly where you are. It gets easier but you will never be the same again, he's broken you two and I don't think it can be fixed, I know we can't.

I'm sorry to hear that you have been having a tough time too Mosman. That is rubbish. You are a step ahead of me if you don't give a shit yet. Wish I could fast forward to that stage!

His flat has been confirmed. He can move in a week in saturday Oh GOD him packing his things is going to be hard. That is only 8 days away! Spoke to the counsellor at lunch time and made an appointment for a week on weds. She sounded excellent. Spoke for 15 mins and I explained I was concerned about her trying to find issues in our relationship etc. She said only a crap counsellor would do that, and if we were to have any chance of being amicable she would need to work with him on full disclosure and addressing his selfishness. Sounds promising! I'm excited about the counselling, but terrified of him going at the same time.

God, I'm gutted. What an idiot to throw it all away rather than dealing with his issue when he was first tempted. How weak. How utterly stupid of him.

Yes - he has been the one pushing for it. She is on holiday for Aug but fitted us in due to the urgency. He is disappointed she can't see us sooner.

Too right he's bleeding pushing for it. It's his get out of jail free card.

In what way?!

In that the counsellor will make him confront what he's done, he'll apologise AGAIN and then it's all forgiven isn't it ?
Honestly what can he do to put this right?

I don't understand why counselling is needed at this stage. it's over.
your blue skies are just around the corner

I think the problem for me was you want ducking answers, there aren't any but the intelligent logical side of you insists there must be.
It's almost like the stages of grief have to he gone through, that for me included anger, denial and eventually the penny drops that he was just a selfish entitled bastard who did it because he wanted to and he could.
The other penny that drops is that you'll never forget it. Maybe push it to the back of your mind, carry on day to day but its always there bubbling away and undermining your security and happiness.

What an idiot to throw it all away rather than dealing with his issue

Alpha. This is a VERY hard concept to get. Why? Because it is very painful.

He didn't think he was throwing anything away. He wanted both - you keeping his family going, and him getting excitement and thrills. They aren't incompatible in his world! He doesn't have self esteem issues. He REALLY thinks he is better than you.

You are assessing him from the situation you have, which is love and commitment to one person. He does not have that AND NEVER HAS. Yes he loves you in his own way, but it is not the way you see love. You are a presence in his life, a mother symbol. You are not a person. He has no idea how you feel, because he doesn't want to. There is a void inside of him which he fills up with business attention and flirting attention and that is enough for him! Now STFU and get back into the house, and stop that irritating, whining drone.

Lundy Bancroft: [immature etc] men's abusiveness is their ticket to running away FROM THEMSELVES.

do not stop reading chumplady.com. Not to be angry and vindictive, but to truly absorb, understand and accept the very hard realities. She gets it.
He has lots of issues. What about yours? Co dependence is a bitch, Alpha. It is also a way of running away from ourselves. I fear loneliness and doubt my competence, so I have been 'committing' and hoping he would work on his issues (what that actually did was give him information that he got away with it and that I will tolerate disrespect). If I spend lots and lots of time trying to 'reach' Mr Wobbly and getting him to change, then perhaps he can provide me with the love I need to feel happy and secure...

Not. Going. To. Happen. I have to make myself secure. It really hurts to accept that the person you love is this disconnected Alpha. You discovered the phone and more hotel bills. That tells you all you need to know about how much he has changed and how hard he is working! He changed the phone because he is ENTITLED to and you aren't the boss of him. He doesn't get your pain. Its inconvenient. If he mouths a couple of things then you should stop crying. He tried, now he has had enough.

chumplady:

Why do cheaters cheat? Because they CAN. It?s that simple. Do you need more of an answer? Okay. Because of greediness. Because of narcissism. Because of a lack of empathy for others affected by their shit decisions. Because they value ego kibbles more than they value your well-being. But the reasons simply boil down to ? greed, opportunity, and not caring.

One very common mistake the Cheated Upon make is believing it is all way more complicated than that.

• Alpha it really is as simple as this. Finding out that the person I loved was this disconnected, this selfish, has been the most painful thing. It has taken a long time to see just HOW disconnected and selfish. It was waiting and hoping for better. But he was always like this. And once he decided he was tired of being a husband and father, he set about quite deliberately to find someone to give him lovely ego kibbles. When your partner told you about excitement and fantasy he was telling the truth. You have to be disconnected and not have empathy to find that exciting.

The other thing? They never stop lying. To stop lying would be to face himself. You are not worth that and you can't make him.

I'm dabbling on a bit but I think what got me was the realisation that he'd kissed me goodbye in the morning, I'd driven 250 miles to work whilst he spent the day playing with our baby, sending me photos of the little one, called me to make sure I wasn't suspicious and was dealt with then got in his car bought a bottle of wind - not condoms mind - drove her to a hotel, had sex, spent an hour or so with her the next day, drove the 250 miles to our head office - we wirked gor the asme company then met me for lunch.
Who the fuck could do that ? Where's the empathy, the love, there's nothing, nothing.
I would be in bits, stuttering, sweating - he never missed a beat - and that's what cannot be be forgotten, that they'd fuck you over without hesitation.

I am reading and re-reading. I need to think about what you have said. You are right. I need to digest it. He doesn't feel guilty about what he has done to me does he? He feels angry and upset for himself. I will re-read and post more.

Alpha, I am posting this because this isn't about him. And because THIS took me 4 years of your situation to truly understand. Chumplady again:

Are you on the fence about leaving a cheater? Is this not their first rodeo? Here are some common traps that keep you stuck with a cheater and prevent you from moving on.

1. Hope. Codependency has been described as the addiction to the POTENTIAL of things. Are you hooked on a cheater?s potential? Wow, she could be a great partner? if only? Or ? I want the guy I thought I married back? Do you grasp at the smallest indication that this person gives a shit about you? You?ve got hope sickness.

It?s hard to be down on hope. It?s hard to fault people who have hope. It seems virtuous. But in cases of infidelity, it can keep you STUCK. Listen to me betrayed people ? hope is not your friend. You need to bludgeon hope with a fencepost and begin to operate with total lucidity.

Because hope is so strong, cheaters know exactly what a powerful manipulation tool this is. The goal of a cheater is cake. Your goal is to get them to come to their senses and be that sparkly person you fell in love with and commit to you. So they will use hope to keep you on the hook. They will feign remorse, cry, say they miss you. They may go to counseling. Admit, hey, they aren?t perfect or Mistakes Were Made. They may crack open a book (usually something like ?When Good People Cheat.?) And you, desperate to save this mess ? take it as a Sign.

The only antidote to hope sickness is self knowledge. Know what you will and will not tolerate. What your values are. Where your boundaries are. Be unswerving in your loyalty to yourself, to your well-being and what sort of relationship YOU want. Hold out for that. Cheaters lie and they lie artfully. So it is essential to watch what your cheater DOES and pay zero attention to what they say.

This is very hard to do. Hope is like that siren song in Ulysses. You?re going to have to tie yourself to the mast and stuff cotton in your ears. But stay strong, because crazy hope that this person is going to fix this and stop hurting you ? in the face of evidence to the contrary ? is the number one reason why people stay stuck with cheaters.

Did you read that? What he DOES? 1. change the code 2. lie/'fail to mention' his activity when baby was small. After being caught and professing a desire to change.

That's what you have to keep looking at. Drop the hopium pipe.

Yes - I'm reading and taking it in. I have to judge him by actions, and not his words. His words are right. His actions don't support them do they. Shit shit shit. Thank you - I so need to hear this. My head and heart aren't catching up fast enough are they? I really really need to hear what you are saying. Thank you xx

Alpha, the lying is just so awful. I did not know there were so many ways to hide yourself in order to maintain a position of advantage over another person: from secrecy, to frank denial, to obstinately refusing to answer a question, to leaving something out, to 'failing to mention', to misdirecting.

I didn't, because I don't work that way! And the key is: you mustn't have people who 'work that way' in your life. They cause stress and hurt and angst, and there are a lot, a lot of people who DON'T 'work that way' you will be calmer and better off, around.

I said to Mr Wobbly 'your ability to lie is terrifying'. Do you know what he answered? 'Yes, it is'.

Dr George Simon: character disordered people know the rules. They know they are hurting people. They know they 'should' be doing something else. They are not 'confused'.They do it for an advantage.

You have to look at the advantages he gets Alpha. You AND the life of being single!! And for someone who wants cake over true intimacy? Lying whilst doing something else is advantageous.