What should you accept in a relationship?

[CognitiveDissonanceismyHobby]

How do you know when a relationship crosses the line to become abusive? How much should you take in a normal healthy relationship?
I'm guessing most couples argue from time to time. How do you know when it's a healthy exchange?

I have read descriptions of emotional abuse via links on here, but I can't say that I read it and think that my DH fits the description exactly. But I feel unease in my marriage. I'm not sure if all couples interact like us and I just need to cope with it better.

I don't think myself or DH had perfect role models in our parents (stable families but with underlying sexism and unequal treatment between our DMs and DFs) but I think we are repeating some of the patterns of our parents and I am scared of passing that on to our DC (my DH refuses to believe that sexism exists and shuts down any attempt at conversation about it).

I suppose what I am asking is, for any of you who have felt that your relationship became low level abusive - how did it make you feel? And what did you do about it - can you get it back on track?

Why don't you describe the interactions between you and your husband that make you feel uneasy?

And a golden rule to bear in mind is that you are entitled to your feelings.

If something makes you feel bad, it makes you feel bad.

And another golden rule is that the only person who can stop an abusive situation is the abuser. The victim has only 2 choices: suck it up, or leave. But only the perpetrator can end the abuse itself.

In a way, I'm not sure it helps to look at what other couples do as normal or not. Some couples argue a lot but still have a healthy relationship, some couples never argue and that's healthy for them.

What matters is that you feel uneasy within your own relationship. What kinds of things make you feel uneasy?

If you think sexism exists, and your DH doesn't and refuses to talk about it, well, that alone would make me uneasy, because I personally think that's a very ignorant and stubborn viewpoint that doesn't bode well for working out problems within the marriage.

Yes describe the interactions. We have 'shitlists' going on the EA thread - you might not be ready for your whole list, but one or two things that bother you as a starting point. The trouble is you often minimise what has happened which you have to do to survive in a way and it's not until you see alot of these faces that you realise how bad it is.

I thought mine was low level, and I was wrong.

Wow, thank you for the quick responses!

I suppose what makes me feel uneasy is DHs ability to make me feel insignificant. I feel a bit bullied by him I think.

The refusal to talk about or acknowledge my concerns about sexism around our children makes me uncomfortable.
But, I have recently discovered feminism (due to the FWR threads on here) and I find I am seeing casual sexism everywhere now! So I may be blowing it out of proportion and seeing it where there is none?
DH is very sarcastic and dismissive about feminism as a whole, even when I have tried to chat to him about it (we used to actually discuss various things that interested us and both give our viewpoints etc) he turns very defensive and nasty. I think he feels I am criticising him as a person (which I am careful not to) but I actually just want to exchange views and experiences of this concept which is new to me!

If I tell my DH I am upset about the way he talks to me or treats me, he apologises for 'losing his temper and taking it out on me' but I know it is not just a temper issue - he never loses his temper with anyone else in his life - just me.

HotDAMN I am now starting to realise just that, that I may have 2 choices - accept and try to manage it, or leave. I don't want to leave, we have some truly happy times together, we've been through so much, have 2 DC. I just want him to see me as an equal! (Which he is adamant he does).

he never loses his temper with anyone else in his life - just me - that's unacceptable if it's not a one off. (And still shoddy if it is but no one's perfect).

And anyone intelligent/informed would accept that sexism isn't 'extinct'.

You only have to watch a few cleaning product adverts or open a red-top paper to realize that...

No, it's not a one off, it's regular. But he doesn't get angry as such, doesn't shout, has never been violent. He just gets a bit... nasty. He seems to try to intimidate me with his tone of voice / body language. I find it so hard to verbalise, but it makes me nervous and anxious. It as though he gives me a 'telling off'.
I have heard his DF talk to his DM in the exact same way, so I think it is something he has learned and maybe doesn't realise he is doing it.
This is something I'm not sure if I'm over-reacting to. I feel like a schoolchild saying 'he's being mean' but I can't actually explain it to people.
I also am a people pleaser - it makes me anxious to think that someone disapproves of me or is disappointed in me, so sometimes I think it is my perception of the situation that is wrong.
I'm going in circles, I don't know my own mind.

TheOrchardKeeper I think he feels it is just a bit of fun, and that sexism in the media is separate to every day life.
I think the truth is that as sexism doesn't usually personally affect him negatively, he just can't work up any interest in it.

sexism in the media is everyday sexism though but I see what you mean about it not being an issue for him so not being interested.

You don't have to shout & be physically abusive to intimidate/attempt to control/hurt someone. And behavior like that is more effective over time, as it becomes 'normal/standard' & it makes you feel like you're overreacting if you were to suddenly take issue with it. It also, like bullying, wears you down bit by bit.

How does he react if you talk to him about this behavior/pull him up on it?

More importantly, do you feel like you can?

I remember reading a leaflet when my DS was having problems at school along the lines of 'how do you know when you're being bullied?'... and ... 'what is bullying?' The way it was explained for children was that if someone else's repeated (rather than one-off) behaviour, words, actions, attitude, etc makes you feel bad, then you are being bullied.

If you feel nervous and anxious in your own home, if you can't express your opinions freely, if you are being ridiculed, intimidated or treated with contempt and sarcasm, then you are probably being bullied. The 'lost my temper' explanation is very poor. Goes hand in hand with 'it's just the way I am' and 'I don't mean anything by it'... and other dismissive non-excuses.

I suspect your DH doesn't accept sexism exists because he doesn't think women.... and you're included in that group unfortunately .... matter. Total lack of respect.

Agree with Cogito - if you feel you're being bullied and it's not a one off thing then you are. It's not a perception problem or anything you've done.

I do point out this behaviour sometimes. At the time, he will ignore what I am saying or put the blame back on to me eg 'well you are pissing me off so what do you expect'.
Sometimes if I am still upset after the event I don't feel I can let it slide so I will tell him that I feel bullied and the way he speaks to me is inappropriate. I ask him to imagine looking in at our marriage from the outside and imagine how it looks, and what his friends /family would say if they could hear the way he talks to me (they would be totally shocked, no one else ever sees this side of him). Then he says he is so sorry for making me feel this way and that he doesn't mean to do it, he just loses his temper and it won't happen again. His apologies sound sincere and I think even he believes them at the time.

So he blames you.

Then when he thinks you're taking it very seriously backtracks and wheels out the classic excuses. (I lost my temper...It won't happen again).

But it does happen again. It sounds sincere because you need to believe it.

And things like not showing this side of himself to others, blaming you, saying it's a one off but repeating it, being dismissive of the issue do all go hand in hand with an abusive relationship structure.

Sorry to sound extreme but I bet you had an inkling or you wouldn't have posted.

The way I feel has made me question whether it is abusive. But when I have read definitions of emotional abuse, I can't place him in there. And I don't trust my own judgement on the situation.

Reading it as you have put it is a shock. I can't seem to equate that with my DH. He can be nice, fun, caring, doesn't cheat, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble, is not violent - so I feel I should be grateful for that.
I don't want to think of it as abuse because then I know I can't do anything about it.
Can this behaviour ever be part of an otherwise healthy relationship?

You can do something about it but not about him. It's not an issue for him, from what you've said.

This behavior is not healthy so the relationship cannot be healthy. It can have highs, where he's not made you feel that way for a while but that's as good as it gets and a whole lot less than anyone deserves. It's toxic behaviour that is making you feel bad. That is not how a healthy relationship should make someone feel.

(And of course he can be fun etc...no one would stay in these relationships if they were horrible all the time. There has to be something to keep you going).

Sorry to sound cold, I know it must be horrible to have a realization like this.

Have you talked to him about it recently?

have you every considered giving Women's Aid a call? (Sounds more extreme than it is, they can just hear you out and give you advice based on what you tell them about the relationship. They are extremely helpful with things like this & may be able to shed more light on this and talk about it more in depth).

You do not sound cold TheOrchardKeeper, just wise!
Just writing this and having somebody who doesn't know us spot these issues makes me feel less like I am going mad and misjudging the situation.

I feel like women's aid would laugh and give me some examples of some women who have much more serious problems!
It's hard when DH only shows this side to me. It makes it difficult to talk to anyone in RL as they would not equate this with the man they know.

Yes we have talked about it recently, we fell out last night after he made a few nasty comments to me and we have talked briefly about it today. I told him I am beginning to see things clearer and not to bother apologising, I know he thinks he means it, but it is insincere. But there's no point is there? If I can't change him, there's no point trying or even discussing it.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed a couple of posts.

Cogito your whole post rings true. Every word. And that is not a nice realisation. I suspect that a lot of it is that I am a woman. But DH would strongly deny that.

It's hard when DH only shows this side to me. It makes it difficult to talk to anyone in RL as they would not equate this with the man they know

I can guarantee they'd take that seriously. It's hard to judge from outside but that is often a marker of an abusive relationship. The person who it's being done to is not mean to feel they can easily talk about it to friends and family (often through fear of not being believed, as their partner seems nice to others).

Well done for pulling him up on it though. It sounds like it's still in the early stages, though likely to escalate/repeat in time.

If he was willing to really listen & maybe accept some responsibility for his actions then it would sound like just a slightly toxic relationship that could maybe be worked on but the fact he just does it, 'apologizes' but then does it again really isn't a good sign.

If you still feel unsure I think a call to WA would help you to clear your thoughts, take a step back and see it from the outside. There's no rush to make any decisions but there's no harm in making sure that when/if you do, it's an informed one.

(Also, hate to say it but the fact this was normal for his parents when he grew up makes it sound like a learned pattern. It sounds like pop psychology but it often rings true. My dad was the way he was mostly because of his dad. I know adults make their own choices but it sounds like your DH has made his choice in that respect).

" He can be nice, fun, caring, doesn't cheat, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble, is not violent - so I feel I should be grateful for that. "

Those things are 'givens' in decent men, not something to be grateful for. Bullies often are very nice and charming as long as everything's going their way. It's only when they are challenged... which you are doing by wanting to discuss feminist issues... that they go on the attack. If everyone's agreeing with them, they are in control so no problem. Show a little dissent, a difference of opinion, and .... pow!.... he doesn't have to black your eye or break your arm when he can intimidate you into being anxious, nervous and keeping your mouth shut.

Over time, the danger is that you think twice before raising certain subject, you avoid no-go areas, you second-guess his reaction before doing or saying something..... then the controlling bully has got you cowed and he's all right Jack. This is how they operate

I think it's really really hard to be honest with yourself about low-level (if there is such a thing) abuse after several years of marriage because you get so good at being in denial about everything. It's hard to make a pattern of abusive behaviour when it's wiped from your mind by distractions or pleasant interaction with your spouse or whatever.
It sounds like you're still talking to him a great deal about how you feel as if you're hoping he will take steps to change. That's maybe possible, but it also gives him a lot of chances to minimise how you feel, or maybe guilt you into minimising it yourself, or, as you say, he apologises seems to want to change.
(that's basically what CB said but longwinded - sorry)
Probably you'll get to a point where you talk less with him about this stuff and more with friends or a counsellor or on here or something - you'll have different perspectives and you'll gain a different understanding of it.
I think at this point it doesn't really matter whether on paper your relationship is abusive because it won't have sunk in enough for you to leave even if it is.
(It probably is, or you wouldn't be asking).
I know this isn't what you're asking, but try to create spaces where you can talk honestly about how you're feeling and what's going on, or use spaces you already have in your life, and try to have positive things outside your marriage - a book group/friends/a hobby etc so that when you're evaluating whether to leave, you've got things in your life you can look forward to and it's not a total void.
That might all sound really obvious though.

These replies are so helpful, I'm so glad I posted

I am taking them all on board, this is eye opening for me.

I have to go to out now but I will reply to posts tonight when I can.
Thank you again.

I'm a long time lurker but felt I needed to post as I am ins very similar situation op, I hope everything works out for you I will be following the thread with interest.

Yes, I agree with the consensus here. You are being bullied