What should you accept in a relationship?

[CognitiveDissonanceismyHobby]

How do you know when a relationship crosses the line to become abusive? How much should you take in a normal healthy relationship?
I'm guessing most couples argue from time to time. How do you know when it's a healthy exchange?

I have read descriptions of emotional abuse via links on here, but I can't say that I read it and think that my DH fits the description exactly. But I feel unease in my marriage. I'm not sure if all couples interact like us and I just need to cope with it better.

I don't think myself or DH had perfect role models in our parents (stable families but with underlying sexism and unequal treatment between our DMs and DFs) but I think we are repeating some of the patterns of our parents and I am scared of passing that on to our DC (my DH refuses to believe that sexism exists and shuts down any attempt at conversation about it).

I suppose what I am asking is, for any of you who have felt that your relationship became low level abusive - how did it make you feel? And what did you do about it - can you get it back on track?

I'd do a thought experiment. Imagine yourself talking to him the way he talks to you.

I have tried actually doing this this to my DH (he has on one or two occasions, spoken to me as he would speak to our DCs). It was very powerful in demonstrating what he sounds like.

I'm not sure if your DH has such insight or ability to apologise genuinely and change - his comments about feminism make me think that he's basically a pretty defensive individual

Put down, shut down, dismissed, bullied, belittled, told off, dismissed, talked down to - these aren't things that are part of a healthy relationship.

If you don't think it's bad enough for Women's Aid, if you think he's essentially a decent person who's simply not learnt how to communicate in a relationship, then it may be fixable.

This doesn't mean that you should 'accept and try to manage it' - if it's to be fixed, he is the one that needs to manage things. Would he go to Relate? If he values you and the relationship enough to give your feelings the same importance as his own, then you may be able to work it out. If he won't try because he thinks you're the only one with the problem, well, then you need to seriously consider whether what you get from the relationship is worth what it takes from you.

" He can be nice, fun, caring, doesn't cheat, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble, is not violent - so I feel I should be grateful for that. "

No, no, no. These things should be a given. My other half treats me wonderfully; not because I'm lucky but because I deserve it. You also have the right to be listened to without being shouted down. A man who does shout you down/pulls a moody/stonewalls you is showing that a) He feels insecure about himself and about you answering back and b) doesn't have a lot of respect for you.

One of the things which leapt out at me OP was the fact he treats his own mother badly. Yes, I know there are men who treat their mothers wonderfully but are abusive arseholes to their partners but if a man cannot treat his mother, the woman upon whom he bases all other man-woman relationships well then it is worrying for every partner of that man. My father is as you describe your husband and he is an abusive bully who can basically, 'dish it out but cannot take it' to use a phrase.

All partners ought to be their partners' best friends. Think of what a best friend (male or female) ought to be in your eyes and then see if your other half matches that. If not, you've got problems.

Reading on the run! But just to quickly clarify, my DH is very respectful to his mother (in fact I have been known on occasion to ask him if he would want his mother to know the nasty comments he says to me - which he gets very sheepish at the thought of happening). It is his DF (my FIL) who talks to my MIL in the same belittling tone that I hear from my DH.

Thank you all for these replies, it is really helping me see things with more clarity. Again, I will post more when I can, later.

Cog your posts are always spot on. I do sometimes find that I will skirt around a subject if I know he won't like it, or I am keeping things from him that I know he will get irritated about and use it as a reason to have a go at me.

Superloud it is nice to have some gentle prodding in the right direction. I have been nervous of starting this thread in case I got LTB responses, which I don't think I am ready to act on. But some advice on widening my social circle and finding somewhere I can talk freely is really helpful, thank you.

gumboot I am sorry to hear you are going through a similar thing. It is shit isn't it. I hope you find some use from this thread too.

Jamie do you mean just imagine talking to DH like that - or actually doing it? When I imagine it, it makes me feel guilty, and I would apologise straight away for hurting his feelings! How did you approach the situation with your DH? Did it work?

I think he would consider Relate, punk, when I have suggested it before, he has not dismissed it. But we don't have any child care for us to go together so I don't think we'll manage it. We have been together for 15 years so this is a pretty well established pattern of behaviour between us.

Phalenopsis he is becoming less and less of a best friend as this bullish behaviour escalates. I am becoming nervous around him and I am thinking over conversations before we have them, thinking 'will this piss him off? Should I not talk about this?'

I'm not painting him in a good light, I know. He's not all bad though, honestly.

I did do it. In my case, it's not something that has happened a lot, but just a few times I' ve repeated back to him what he said to me. Because he's a very decent man and he now knows how important it is to me for him to say sorry and show me he's sorry ( he used to try and joke me out of it when i was unhappy with him and hope it would blow over), it has worked.

What struck me was that coming on MN has released my inner feminist, as you said. The difference is, though that he's a feminist too.

Relate will see you separately if necessary, but it's not going to be nearly as effective as going together.

If it's getting worse, you're getting nervous, and you're feeling you have to censor your conversation you really have to do something now, not later. Or your next thread will be a LTB one.

If you don't have parents near enough to babysit are there any friends, colleagues or neighbours who would step in for a couple of hours? Is there a local professional babysitting service or drop-in creche? Local college that runs childcare courses and has students in need of bit of cash? And ask Relate themselves - childcare causing problems with appointments must be a common problem so they may be able to recommend someone.

I agree with your posts Punk.

Your DH does sound like a decent man, to be surprised and genuinely sorry once he heard his words spoken back to him Jamie. I don't actually know what my DHs reaction would be to that. Worth a try though!

Punk that has really scared me, but yes I suppose it is getting worse if I am censoring myself. I will take a look at Relate and try to come to some childcare arrangement. I have read on here though that if there is some EA, counselling is not the best thing?

I just don't want any of this to be happening. I'm gutted.

OP

I am so sorry this is happening. Stay strong.

He doesn't beat you, doesn't cheat etc

OP, the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none

Don't be "grateful" for the things he doesn't do. Those are normal exclusions in a relationship, not something you should put him on a pedestal for

You sound cowed, and like you modify your behaviour around your husband

is this the marriage you hoped for...and an example you wish to model for your children ?

Individual counselling when you are subjected to EA is fine. Joint sessions are not recommended

AF that is one of the reasons this is coming to a head - I am terrified of my DC learning this from us. I don't want them ending up in a relationship like this.
I do try to hold my own when DH is being bullish - I pull him up on it, and try not to let it modify my behaviour. I will do that even more so since this thread; it has helped me detach a bit from the situation and see it more for what it is. I think I'll enquire about counselling (and maybe suggest to DH that he goes on his own too?).

I don't know what the outcome of this will be. This has made me actually start to really think about LTB, but I don't think I'm in the right place mentally for that yet. After 15 years I feel pretty ground down by (and dependent on?) him.

I almost wish I had never discovered feminism - it has opened my eyes to some things I don't want to see!

And thank you Jamie, I really appreciate that people I have never met have taken the time to give me advice, it really means a lot

It's pretty understandable to not feel ready to suddenly break it off when you've only just realized how bad things are.

Glad this thread has helped but be aware that it's harder to build yourself back up when the person grinding you down is still present.

Best of luck

I can relate to your children's situation, love

Watching my father bully my mother for years damaged me, and indirectly led to some very big mistakes I made in my teenage/young adult years

She is still with him, btw, 30 years on from that. He still acts the same, we don't have a relationship and the one I have with my mother is very strained. It is not how it should be.

and completely^ agree with what AF said.

Hope you're kids are youngish, as the sooner the better in terms of minimizing the damage on them.

Best of luck

I'm sorry to hear that AF, I really don't want that for my family.
It is only since having DC that this became a big issue - I think there was a subtle shift in power in our relationship - I was in the house more, started earning much less money and having less free time... I feel like my DH has treated me 'less equal' since then (though again - he denies this, which makes me think am I just imagining it or over sensitive?!).

I've tried to explain how I feel this morning, and he seems to be taking it seriously. I am feeling a little detached though.

That actually makes it sound even worse.

It's a well known pattern that men inclined to behave this way are worse when the 'power' shifts. So if you become financially dependent on them or have children with them. You're less likely to leave as you need the support and are in a vulnerable position.

I'd guess you're not imagining it...

(and be wary of how sincere he may seem. It's in his best interests to seem so. Sorry to sound skeptical)

To me it sounds as though he has absorbed a worldview which is necessarily sexist just in the way that he sees everything. It sounds to me like he subconsciously sees a hierarchy within families where he is subtly higher than you are, and his parents are above him (but his father is higher than his mother). This is just inbuilt and, to him, the way things are. He probably does think he sees you as equal because in his mind the hierarchy encompasses equal-but-different things about men and women. It also means he feels entitled/reasonable to use low level EA to maintain this position, he probably doesn't see it this way, but more akin to how you might reprimand an older child who knows the rules but has just lost their way a little bit.

He's probably hostile to the idea of feminism because it does shake up his happy little worldview. And he probably won't ever see you as an equal because he is stuck with women in this little category somewhere akin to "adult child who still needs guidance every now and again". So I don't think you do have an option to manage or change it, it's whether you are happy in this outdated idea of a "woman's role" or whether you want something more.

(agree that if his dad was sexist etc then he may hold the view that you've had the kids now & you've been 'put in your place'. He's just making sure you stay there).

I bet he doesn't do anywhere near 50/50 on housework, cooking, food/clothes shopping and childcare either (discounting the time when he's not at home) and if he does anything at all, refers to it as "helping" - implying he sees it as your job.

And separate leisure time - I'd be willing to bet that he goes out alone in the evenings and weekends more often than you do, and that he takes the children out alone much less than you do (if at all). Again because he sees the children as your responsibility - and he probably does have a lot of respect for you because of that - just a shame that respect is concentrated in those areas and precludes him from respecting you as he would a male friend or colleague.