How far do you make allowances for 'how somebody is' when considering poor behaviour?

[BranchingOut]

I have posted before on here about my DH - at present we have more or less agreed to give our relationship one last try. The potted summary is that for a long time he has expressed unhappiness/disatisfaction and doubt about the relationship. Finally during a row in early May I told him that I was very close to saying that enough was enough. This gave him a real shock and he said that he loved me, didn't want to lose me etc.

This post is just to get some opinions on something that happened this morning.

He has always been 'not a morning person', so I have long adjusted to him being a bit sullen and grumpy in the morning. Likewise, he does not like being a passenger when I am driving and is critical of my driving. So, on occasions when he gets a lift with me in the morning he can often be quite irritable.

But this morning I noted that he uttered six things that were either directly critical, mocking me or questioning my decisions - within a five minute car journey. All 'small', but the effect is cummulative.

I might be a bit sensitive today, as I have a major deadline today, but I had a bit of a cry on my way to the tube station. I am also finding it a bit tricky to get focused and on with what I need to do, hence turning to MN.

So how far, in a loving relationship, should a partner make allowances for something that happens during a person's bad times/bad situations?
Would it be ok if he was just there grumbling, but not being critical of me? Where does 'that's how he is' cross over into unacceptable?

Many thanks for any insight.

...apart from the words that twattergy suggests, of course

those statements are the only sane response, tbh

Branching, I'm sorry, it must be so hard for you. I feel embarrassed and annoyed with myself because of the behaviour I accepted from ex.

There is no form of words or behaviour from you that will make this better. It is who he is and it sounds like your husband for whatever reason does not respect you.

Out of interest what is he like when he talks about friends/other people? After ex left and I thought about it, I realised that he frequently expressed contempt or made snide remarks about people who were supposed to be his friends.

I think AF is right - you don't have any sort of ultimatum at the moment. You can't say "stop repeatedly belittling me in a bid to cling on to your sense of superiority or else you're out", because he knows he's not out.

20 years is a hell of a long time and he's all you've known. It's a hell of a decision to have to make and I don't envy you. But what strikes me in all of your posts is an overwhelming sadness, a sort of weariness. How long has it been like this - both your sadness and his criticisms?

Thanks, all.

I think the problem is that I still just want it to be better, to go back to how it once was. I still live in hope!

I do appreciate your words and am probably edging closer to that day, that enough is enough day, but I am not quite there yet.

what are the chances of it getting better, love, if you both keep playing the parts you have been so far ?

he isn't going to change, if the situation doesn't change

it suits him just fine the way things are right now

Okay, give it 3 weeks max. See if things improve.

I spent years hoping things would improve and it nearly destroyed me. It breaks my heart seeing women on here wishing their lives away like this.

And those that do get out, well, they all say they wish they'd done it sooner...

I agree with the others, BUT I think like you sound like you are listening out for the criticisms too. You are hyper-aware of the potential for them, so hyper sensitive to them when something close to them gets delivered. NOT saying he is in the right for mocking you - but if you are going to give something one last chance, you should try to clear your mind as far as possible and start a genuinely resentment-less slate...

The thing is Branching, those comments you listed upthread are damaging and should not be tolerated. Somewhere along the line, you have been conditioned to accept this slow and steady diet of crappy comments on you and your DC. He doesn't appear to kick off bigger arguments, because he knows where your limits are, that you will accept lots of small, damaging, crappy commentaries on you and your life and be 'resilient' in the face of them.

This is like the water torture technique that was designed to mentally and emotionally break prisoners of war. It is a form of control and abuse that your H is exerting over you and your DC. It is designed to reduce you and your children's self worth and self esteem so that he can feel superior. The ex-twat certainly did this to me, and the situation improve only somewhat after I confronted him - instead of 9 shitty comments in a row, I would get them metered out one by one over the course of a day.

The bottom line is you are not happy. He doesn't make you happy. He says he is unhappy. This is not what relationships are meant to be about. If being together makes neither of you happy, then that's enough reason to split. Breaking up is not you being nasty, it's actually being kind in the long run, to you both .

Wanting him to be different is not working for you.

He doesn't believe you will leave. Ok leave or not as and when you will. In the meantime pass out natural consequences for each offense. Eg criticism in the car, stop car, our him out.

Put him out

Death by a thousand papercuts

It seems he is fast and loose with what he says - you, meanwhile, agonise about 'how to say it'.

Just say it. Who is he anyway? Why are you afraid of him, afraid to speak? I'm sure it's because he puts you down so viciously that you are afraid to disturb the beast...

Is that really how you want to live? Afraid of your life partner, afraid of how much he hurts you?

I will let the thread die away for now, but I am going to move forward on couples counselling (which he recently agreed to after resisting it for years) and remind him of our 'lets give it another try' conversation eg. what precisely are we going to do differently?

I have just spent some of lunchtime looking up couples counsellors and I will show him the website of one who I think will suit us quite well. Funnily enough, I have chosen a man, located very close to my husband's office - as I suppose I am consciously neutralising the possibility that he will criticise a female counsellor, not accept what she suggests or refuse to attend on the basis of it being inconvenient.

Thanks, everyone.

Apart from him of course, you are your own worst enemy. Note as well all this couples counselling is being driven primarily by you.

Counselling for your own self would be advisable but couples counselling is not recommended due to the ongoing emotional abuse he metes out to you. It is never recommended in abusive situations.

NO decent counsellor would ever want to see the two of you together given the circumstances. I doubt very much he will attend anyway, why would he want to go now after refusing to do so for so long?.

The other mistake you are doing here is letting this thread die off (like all your previous others). Look at his actions, not his weasel words.

Your H will use any such sessions as a stick to further beat you with; you will not come off at all well from this as he will blame you for all the problems and keep you quiet. You will feel too paralysed to be able to speak up. If he can manipulate you so easily he can certainly manipulate a counsellor.

Counselling for the two of you together will be a complete waste of time because the power/control balance is skewed in his favour to start with. You have no power at all left in this relationship because he has never regarded you as an equal within it. You need counselling for your own self, he will never let you speak freely in a controlled environment.

In a loving relationship....this is not a loving relationship, BranchingOut.

You are not an equal in this relationship. It is almost like you are not even on the same team.
"He is having his doubts...* so you better toe the line or you'll be (what?)
in trouble (as though you were a child),
fired (as though you were his employee),
dumped (as though you were not good enough for him),
his emotional toilet (because you are not doing everything exactly the way he would do it so he believes that gives him all the justification needed to emotionally abuse you).

I have not read your other thread(s), but it does sound like he needs to be superior as other posters have said. And you are his favorite target to "meet his needs".

You can not change him, but you can change you.
If you can not physically detach at this time, you can emotionally detach.
Why on earth do you care what he thinks? Because that is part of the respect and civility that defines a 'loving relationship'. But over an extended period of time, you have come to realize that you are not, in fact, in a loving relationship. For the sake of your own mental health, stop listening to his opinions, stop caring about what he says. Teflon ears, Branch, nothing sticks. Don't tell him, just do it.

All of this crap that so freely flows from his mouth is not about you anyway; it is about him having a superiority festival at your expense. If it was not you, it would be someone else.

But I will bet he will never break up with you. Why? Because it is hard to find someone who will put up with this behavior, and he will lose the years invested in conditioning you, and he doesn't want to have to condition someone else as that would entail performing the nice-nice script (ie: choosing to behave appropriately) for an extended period of time.

BranchingOut, if anyone is an irritant on this board, it is me for always making such long posts!

if he's nasty to you when you give him lifts, stop giving him lifts. wherever you are going, it can't be far, if it only takes 5 minutes to get there. let him walk next time.

I am not a morning person in the slightest and can be very snappy when I first wake up, especially if I've not have a full nights sleep. I'm not even aware I'm doing it while I'm doing, but afterwards, when I realise what an arse I've been, I apologise. It's not enough and I don't think my actions are ok because I've said sorry but it's the least I can do.

Obviously having a young DD means I don't always get the sleep I need but I make sure I go to bed earlier to combat any ill effects I might experience in the morning. Simply saying "I'm not a morning person" is not good enough IMO.

For his sullen attitude to continue even when you've left the house is not on. It's almost like he's using it as an excuse to justify his rude behaviour towards you.

I can only go on personal experience but the only other person I've seen be critical of someone else's driving to the extent that your DH is is my dad with my mum. He can be truly awful, has made her a nervous driver and many other things to boot. But it's not the only time in the relationship that he's a control freak. He is definitely a bully and although my mum stands up for herself now he still controls the relationship. Your OP made me instantly think of their type of relationship and I wondered if that could be the same for you?

I don't mean to piss on your parade, love, but I agree with Atilla that couples counselling with this man is a big mistake.

So....

you put with years of shit. You say 'change, please change'. he has no intention of changing won't change.

Then finally, FINALLY you've had enough and you say 'right that's it!'

He panics. 'I'm so sorry, I'll change! I love bullying you!'

So you go 'ok then. As you say you'll change, we'll give it another go.'

He doesn't change.

Soooo.... you arrange couples counselling. Near his work. With a man, so he won't criticise. Or duck out.

Branching . Love. You're chasing nothing. He won't come up with the goods, has no intention of coming up with the goods. Why should he when you roll out the red carpet each and every time?

he's a shit. Please try to accept that. Forget couples counselling - he'll only use it to bully you more (only it'll be deeper bullying). Book some counselling for yourself.

Lweji - my mum is one of them too - stopped driving because dad never stopped criticizing

On the very immediate car front, tell him you don't want to travel together in the mornings because you don't want to spend the time being criticised. Broken record this, repeat, repeat, repeat, 'I am not going to discuss it anymore. I don't want to travel with you..,etc' . And you have to do it. Resolve now that this morning was the last time you travel together in the car. Even if that means you have to find another way of getting to where you are going, it tells him that the criticism is absolutely not going to be tolerated. Consider this step 1 in taking your life back.

Thanks, I am still here. I do appreciate it and can feel you all there, standing around me.

I am not going to suddenly, here on this thread, say, yes, I am leaving him. But put it this way, the possibility is in my head in a way that it was not a year ago.

I am already getting individual counselling, which has helped.

Branching if your counsellor us any good they will enable you to see this:

Branching- why does he ...

Answer- because he wants to

That is a key realisation.