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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

999 replies

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 03/03/2013 18:27

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.


Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)
OP posts:
tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 08:41

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pumpkinsweetie · 02/08/2013 08:43

Exactly midwife i think we have many years to wait, atleast a decade, before these supposed fatalities awaitGrin
After dh was conned into doing diy for a whole year in 2010, whilst i was pregnant and at home with 3 kids on weekends as "fil will have a heartattack if he lifts heavy things", 3 years later and i'm still wondering why he isn't dead!

pumpkinsweetie · 02/08/2013 08:48

It's all about control isn't it tangerine with new babies, we are vunerable as we have just given birth. I think the toxics love a time when they can cause trouble and overide a happy situation! I'm expecting a girl in jan, mil has already expressed her dismay about "it being another girl" and our name choice-she even went as far as to say has she read the name right, she thought it was a spelling mistake when quite obviously there isn't a spelling mistake it is just an unusual variation of a nameWink

tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 08:52

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themidwife · 02/08/2013 08:56

It's funny hearing you all talk about your families insistence that they rush to meet newborns or spend Xmas together. Mine have always been the opposite! They have ignored me at those times "if you have the baby in the night don't ring & wake us up!"

It's only now they're old & frail they have become clinging & smothering but it's all about what I can do for them not wanting to be a family. They use grandchildren as a reason to want to see us now but they ignored my older DSs when they were children.

They don't seem to understand you can't just switch it on now if you never had that type of family before!

tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 09:10

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Meery · 02/08/2013 09:11

Tangerine i really do recommend doing your own Xmas for your family. As i said in my pp it's all about doing the things you enjoy and setting your own stamp on the day.

Pumpkin hopefully you can remain nc and persuade dh to turn off his phone to have a peaceful Xmas this year!

tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 09:17

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dragongirlx · 02/08/2013 09:32

Irs my toxic mothers birthday today. I have been non contact since just after Christmas and haven't sent a card or a present. I am living in fear today she will create one of her crisis moments for attention.
She already set my elderly grandmother on me and my DSis this summer to tell us that we were killing her and ask if we would be happy when she was dead. That was fun to deal with.
I hope she doesn't do anything but I will be a nervous wreck for most of the day.

pumpkinsweetie · 02/08/2013 09:32

Thanks meery think i will try and do just that, if i give in and go contact for one day, she will only want more like last time. If she could see it as a one off i could deal with it, but going on this Mays visit i very much doubt it. Must stay nc, it's best for us all!

pumpkinsweetie · 02/08/2013 09:36

Oh dragon hope you get a peaceful day today, funnily enough that was one of things that came up Christmas Eve. One of the aunts texts more or less said the same thing about mu mil! Well it didn't kill her off she's still live & kicking and i'm sure she'll be dieing again this yearGrin

Just switch your phone off and rip up any post she sends

tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 09:48

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Meery · 02/08/2013 10:22

Oh and another thing re Xmas, my dm counts presents. Woe betide if she gets less than others or if they appear to be cheaper.

tangerinefeathers · 02/08/2013 10:32

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pumpkinsweetie · 02/08/2013 11:00

In regards to gifts, every year there is this big hoo ha over mil-everyone has to put £30 into a collection, normally organized by sil or the aunt to buy her something expensive which she never apprieciates. Sometimes we cannot afford £30, we stick to £20 per adult but mil just has to have moreConfused

My fav memory was when fil turned 60, we all had to rally around and put £60 each into a kitty to buy him a digger thing for his allotment. Such a hoo ha that went on for months, begging us for this £60 we didn't haveConfused, when the time finally come mil hadn't even bothered to wrap it and it turned out her contribution was much less. He opened it with disgruntled smile, only for dh to spend the whole day putting it together....

Last year it was mil 60th, i refused to put such high cash into the kitty and only allowed dh £20 to put in, she was bought an expensive handbag, a named hanbag, when she has no concept of designer itemsGrin. They might aswell have chipped in for a mid price normal bag. There was a giant celebration bbq put on for her inwhich me & dc didn't go as we were nc by then but dh went and he ended up cooking it all whilst fil sat on his behind!

Wonder what they'll be kittying for this year, last christmas it was a solid gold watch for mil....

Meery · 02/08/2013 12:48

Oh pumpkin i would so begrudge being dictated to like that! My dm who has a reputation for being tight with money has a nasty habit of declaring before Xmas what she'd like as a present, normally something like expensive perfume or a handbag and my dsis will get it for her. In return she'll get a bubble bath set from m&s.

Now i thought it was common curtesy to wait until you're asked what you would like rather than demand.........

GoodtoBetter · 02/08/2013 13:50

My mum's not ungenerous but only ever gives cash. Except to my DS (her first gc). He is her latest golden child so she researches presents for him. My DD (her 2nd gc) got cash for her 2nd birthday however. Sad My mum uses generous gifts and inheritance to guilt, manipulate and control. It's always thrown back in your face later

Currently away on holiday for 2 wks (longest we've been away from her in YEARS Grin Shock ) and fighting the feeling I should ring. Have texted and DH has banned me from calling, says she can call if she wants a chat, but it's hard to break those habits. .hard to get away from the engulfing narcissism iyswim.

sammyad · 02/08/2013 21:37

Hi all - I posted the below in Relationships and it was suggested I try reposting here to see if anyone has any advice.

This is probably going to be a fairly long post, as the situation's mostly in my head, and requires a fair amount of background info, so apologies!
Here goes:

BF and I in relatively new relationship (around a year), and recently moved in together. All going swimmingly, except, fairly early in the relationship, he told me that as a child he had been sexually abused by his mother. First of all he said 'a woman', but eventually it turned out he meant her (which I had guessed, anyway.) We talked about it a couple of times - he was never overly specific, except to say that as a teenager he questioned for ages whether it even happened, before deciding it had, and is now certain, but that 'whatever you're imagining, it probably isn't as bad as that.' He works in a job that requires a fair amount of awareness of these sort of situations, so is in a pretty good position to evaluate his own experience, though he does admit that saying it wasn't 'that bad' sounds like quite a typical victim statement.

As far as I can tell, he's come away from it about as well as can be expected - he's lovely, funny, kind and caring, as well as being about the most laid-back person I've ever encountered. He's very close to his father and older half-sister (father's) and her children, and seems to have no problem with healthy, loving relationships, though, perhaps tellingly, at 25, I'm his first girlfriend.

What I find incredibly hard to swallow though is that he still sees his mother on a regular basis. He says he loves her but doesn't like her (not just a result of the abuse - she behaved pretty sh*ttily in divorce with his father 9 years ago, he blames and resents her for keeping him on a high dose of ritalin as a child, which didn't agree with him particularly, and she prevented his father from telling him about older half sister (result of father's previous marriage) until he was 16).

She strikes me (if I try to view her fairly/objectively, as if I had no knowledge of all this) as basically well-meaning on a very superficial level, but insensitive and incredibly self-centred. The only times I have seen BF get remotely wound up during entire course of relationship are as a result of her actions (eg turning up at a work ceremony of his, getting tipsy, making a point of being rude to his father who was also there and doing the 'embarrassing mother taking photos at school assembly' routine - to a professional in his mid-twenties. I found the experience excruciating, and she's not my mother!)

During our conversation about 'it all' (before I actually met her) I asked how he could still see her. He just shrugged, said 'well, that's family, isn't it! Better not to rock the boat...' and seems to think that's all ok. He moved back in with her for some months a few years ago when he was unemployed, and I think feels beholden to her for helping him financially then. He did say that he feels bad, because he would tell anyone else in the same situation to report the abuse they'd suffered, and he hates 'asking people to be braver than I am myself', but then other times just shrugs it off. He says he hardly thinks of it most of the time, which I'm sure is true, and I'm glad about!

The point I'm working my way round to (eventually) is not so much that I want to stop him seeing her - the accommodation he's reached seems to work for him. He is, as I say, an incredibly balanced individual, and he's obviously reconciled it all in his own mind. I don't want to interfere, or do anything that might upset him and make things harder for him to deal with, HOWEVER, I'm finding it increasingly hard to see her.

I know it probably sounds incredibly selfish, but I just hate having anything to do with her. When she invites us round to hers, or even recently when she lent us a fan for the hot weather, I just hate her having any place in our lives, though I think she's largely trying to be nice! We're both in this for the long haul, and I hate the idea of one day her having anything to do with children of ours (incidentally - I hope it's ok to post on here as I'm not actually a 'mum' yet - I just use mumsnet all the time, mostly for household cleaning tips/babysitting ideas for various small people in the family, and it seemed natural to post as it's the forum I use most!) Anyway, yes - mostly, I want to kill her for the various things she's put him through over the years, and am finding myself getting increasingly wound up by both time spent in her company and the thought of it in advance. I don't want to bring it up with BF, as I feel like I'm being unreasonable, given he's come to terms with everything, and was going along perfectly fine with the dynamic he's worked out with her before I came along. Equally, I don't want to talk to my own family about it as we see them quite a lot too, and it's something completely personal to him that I don't suppose he'd like them to know. Ditto close friends.

To be honest, this is mostly a rant as I have to get it off my chest, even if only in anonymity, but would also appreciate any advice, as I need to somehow find a way to deal with her!

pumpkinsweetie · 03/08/2013 09:47

sammy i don't have any advice or experience of this, but your poor bf. Hope you can both get through this together.

I understand why you don't want to see his mum, i wouldn't either, what an uncomfortable situation for you and must be hard wondering why he still visits her. My dh experienced physical abuse by his father, although he has been with me 9yrs he still hasn't completley opened up to me about exactly what happened so it's good your bf feels he can open up to you. I'm hoping one day my dh can be more open with me.
Fwiw my dh still sees his father, it completely goes beyond my realms of thinking tbh, but i cant stop him, if that's what he wants.

Hope someone comes along soon with more knowledge x

tangerinefeathers · 03/08/2013 15:02

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sammyad · 03/08/2013 20:24

Thanks for the replies - tbh I'm so glad just to have got it off my chest. Been brewing for months now!

pumpkinsweetie · 04/08/2013 11:08

Sorry hijacking the thread again!
Yesterday was somewhat odd, me & dh both got fb messages, mine from mil, and his from sil wishing my daughter a happy birthday, although her birthday is 5 days away. They have been told continually by dh when her birthday is, infact he reminded them friBlush

Well next thing we know mil phones dh wondering why i haven't said thankyou for the message, he explains that her birthday is 5 days away, then mil goes on to ask when dd4s birthday is- Its been and gone! Then 2 mins later sil rings up asking why he hasn't said thankyou for the messageBlush, he explains the situation again, and many "yes" & "no" answers were made by dh and he looked as though he was being cojouled into something. When he put the phone down he was acting all down again like he does when they have contacted him.

He has a job starting tomorrow, it's what we as a family have been waiting for nearly a year since dh was made redundant. I think contacting us using my dds near birthday was a ploy to cause trouble as they know he starts work soon. They will do anything to upset him and make it all about them and i wish dh would tell me what was said in those phonecalls.

Aibu here but if they really thought it was her birthday, where is her cards/presents? And why should i say thankyou for a fb message?
Also why do they conspire together ie one minute mil, the next sil???
I have told him he needs to staave off from them for a few days so he can settle into work uninterupted. Because i just know they will ruin things by phoning whilst he is at work or phoning in breaks begging for me & dc to resume contact (this will depress dh and i & dc will ultimatley suffer).

If he ruins this job in anyway we will be without any money as the jobcentre do not allow jsa to those that sabotage their new job etc.
He had a temp job at a local supermarket over the christmas period, they caused trouble then making him ill which made him take time off work. He is very lucky the supermarket didn't fire him.

How do i get him to realise at this time he needs to stay away from any contact ?

GoodtoBetter · 04/08/2013 20:04

Sorry to hear that, pumpkin. Sad I don't really know what to advise but I do know how hard it is to break out of the FOG. I am currently wrestling with whether to ring my DM (engulfing narc). We're away on hols and I've sent 3 breezy texts about kids, one of which hasn't been replied to and here I am feeling guilty I haven't rung. Shock We've only been away 3 days. Sad Keep giving myself virtual slaps with imaginary wet fish.

pumpkinsweetie · 04/08/2013 21:24

Thanks goodtobetter think that's what dh needs, to big fish slap himselfGrin

No contact from them today thank f*....yet!!
But mil has had the audacity to 'share' shitty quote pictures, all 5 of them probably aimed at me but i will ignore and let her carry on.
Haven't deleted her yet, and probably won't as it causes more trouble than it is worth iyswim, but i now hide certain threads & pics from ils so i get to pick and choose what they see.

GoodtoBetter · 04/08/2013 21:40