"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I'm very, very tired today. I'm still trying my hardest to stay as calm as possible with the children, but I can feel all the anger bubbling just under the surface. Yesterday, DS kept saying 'are you OK, Mum?' looking really concerned, and I knew he was seeing that pent-up-aggression face that I inherited directly from Dad. It's not a face I want him to see.

I'm really looking forward to counselling starting at the end of July.

All I can do at the moment is take long calming breaths. I taught him the technique when he was having anger management issues a year or so ago, so he recognises it and seemed pretty pleased I was giving it a go.

I still feel pretty miserable about myself though. My fear that I'm turning into Dad is overwhelming at the moment, and the over-thinking everything is exhausting, which makes the stress worse, which makes me more likely to shout.

I am getting help - my medication was changed a couple of months ago, and I'm working with a psychiatrist to get my new dose right, and like I say, I've got therapy starting in about 7 weeks now, but it just seems to have been so very long that I've been miserable and taking it out on the kids. It's not fair.

Oscalito

If your mother is too toxic for you to deal with, she is too toxic for your child.

I can also understand the desire for a break, is there any way you can obtain a childminder?.

Re nappies, this may be a stupid question but are you sure she knows how to change them?

I know I have not posted here before about my problems but I am having a terrible day is anyone there? I need to work out what to do but I can't can someone talk to me please

What's up?

inneedofrain sorry you're feeling so terrible. What's the problem? [hug]

Hello all.

New poster. Long time lurker.

Currently dealing with issues relating to a toxic family. I made the choice 10 years ago to cut them all off. I am at current speaking with a psychologist. I am still in contact with my mother, but I think I need to cut ties with her also as she failed to protect me and committed a major part of the abuse. I have told her a number of times what her failing has led to, but she cannot see what she has done wrong - nor can she remember me telling her previously. Her response is always shock (even though I have told you a number of times before ), followed by "I had it very hard" (I didnt tell her to keep having kids with various men did I?? ). She comes from a family of sexual/physical abuse, neglect and abandonment and vowed to raise her kids differently - she FAILED in that department.

Spent my childhood knowing that I wasn't being raised properly (by visiting friends homes etc) and wanted to escape. Every time I came into contact with authorities, they would be concerned about how my mother was raising me. Social services threatened to remove me from the home twice, but nothing came of it.

My psychologist thinks that moving away will help with my recovery. I need to cut her off, but covertly (so as not to upset my DC1) - perhaps by moving to the other end of the country.

Sorry for all the "I" "I" "I" - "ME" "ME" "ME".. It's difficult.

Sorry all. I just had to go out try and get my head on straight.

Ok nut shell.

My parents are toxic beyond beliefe it was never anything big iyswim, so they always kept me questioning if it was me?

eg. childhood admitance into hospital for 6 weeks I saw my dad ONCE and my mum TWICE all the other kids have mums and dad staying with them, I had gone through major surgery and was hdi on the paed ward and they just didn´t come at all.

eg. Adult on set epilepsy following a car accident, my father tried really really hard to have me committed (sorr I can´t think of the right word), he was convienced I was "ill in the head" (his words not mine) and that there was nothing phyically wrong with me.

two examples only there is loads more. They won´t come to my wedding, I ran the house from 8, nursed my grandmother (who lived with us) etc. They have never congratulated me on anything, They talk over me / pretend I don´t exsist. Tell me I´m a burden / was the biggest mistake they made / a hateful accident etc etc etc

anyway on to today, DD is allergic to lactose, but Mum and Dad just don´t believe me. So two weeks ago dd was violently sick (according to mum and dad there is a bug going round) anyway she has been very poorly for the last two weeks missed 4 days of school (2 after being sick), she is full of muscus and is having trouble getting her breath, I have had her on nebulisers and all sorts to try and ease it. She is NOT running a temp and the mucus is clear so the consultant (phone consultation) is happy it is not an infection (2 more days missed following very bad astham attack). Anyway dd told me yesterday that the day she was sick granny and grandad took her out for icecream. But worse they told her not to tell me.

I spoke to mum and dad this morning, and said did you give dd icecream. I got a mouthful of abuse back, I´m an unfit mother, you name it they then stormed out whilst throwing abuse about me to DH.

I am about 2 seconds away from cutting them off completly. But that would be a terrible shame for DD as they are her only set of grandparents. But I am so worried about the harm they are doing her.

This by the way is NOT the first instance of things like this. They have repeatedly given DD food containing lactose whilst telling her it doesn´t. They gave her coke at 2years old, they are PA with me over anything to do with the time they spend with DD.

I honest to god could punch them both (I am not violent in the least) but it feels like they are now hurting DD.

I can´t get me head straight at all at the moment, I verge between floods of tears, and rage and thinking I´m being unreasonable.

samsungsing I'm so sorry you're going through this right now. I could have written a lot of your post - especially the stuff about your mum not being able to see what she's done wrong and therefore give you the response you really want and need. (My own mother's gems include "That was a very hard time for me" and "At least you spent a lot of time out of the house"). It hurts because you think surely, SURELY they must be able to see, and the denial or dissociation or whatever it is, well, it's just so self-serving. It helps them. Doesn't work out so well for you, though.

Keep getting it out on here - this is a place where people understand, where it's okay to vent, where nobody thinks you're being "me me me".

inneedofrain again, I'm so sorry you're going through this. You are most certainly not an unfit mother! For what it's worth, I think it would be perfectly reasonable and acceptable if you either cut them off altogether, or only allowed supervised contact if that's something you can stomach. But you don't have to. You don't have to do anything at all.

Nobody has ever died from a lack of contact with toxic grandparents. It's okay to put your DD's safety, and your own sanity, first. Problem is, attachment makes us think we are somehow obliged to these people, and so we keep trying to please them.

As for me, I've just bloody cracked and contacted my mother. So much for being NC. I suggested meeting for coffee or something. She's apparently not free until July.

She lives 10 minutes down the road.
She has time to see my brother.

It's okay to put your DD's safety, and your own sanity, first.

This. Very much this.

Inneedofrain, I don't let either my dad or my stepdad near either of my children alone. It doesn't happen. Mum doesn't know this, and I've not actually said to either of them, but it is in my will that regardless of who looks after the children, they are never alone with Dad or Stepdad.

Your parents haven't earned any rights from you. They have failed you over and over, so why should you let them have open access to your daughter, particularly now that they're showing they're failing her too. You don't owe them anything.

Samsungsing, now that you have the option to remove yourself from your mother, in the way that you didn't when you were smaller, do you think you could take it? It's an extremely difficult step to take if you do, and if so, I hope you have at least one good person on your side to help you. I would stop raising the problem with her; no matter how much justice there would be to hear her say 'yes, I was responsible, I am sorry,' I don't think it's ever going to happen. Is there some way that you could come to terms with that?

I think you might have to grieve a bit for the mother you should have had.

Jess, just hugs to you. I'm sorry she can't make time. I would, but I'm no use to you.

My day picked up again. I was calm and nice with the children. DS even agreed to read in bed with me. I like it when they let me get close.

Jess - Many thanks for your reply.

My mother could never give me the response that I need. Her mind is warped. Oh yes! I have heard those gems as well.

I spent a lot of time on my own all day and overnight, whilst my mother went clubbing in and around London and Birmingham - bringing random men home. I remember getting up to go to the bathroom and being introduced to many various men who were never to be seen again. I also had the responsibility of taking care of my older autistic brother who was very violent towards everyone - from the age of 6 - I was 6 and he was 8.

Yes the denial is brain melting. I remember spending much of my youth baffled.

Looking Many thanks for your comments.

The way it is looking, I have to cut her out or limit my exposure to her greatly. At present I live 15 minutes away (by car) and that is all too close. I NEVER go to her house - she makes contact. As I have drawn away, she has been clinging on - irony. I have been diagnosed with PTSD stemming from my childhood and in order to move forward, I need to at least put some distance between me and her. The flashbacks are really raw and occur every time I see her face.

I have a few select friends, but keep them at arms length because of trust issues.

Yes I have stopped raising the problem. I have given up. Last month my mother said sorry and cried her eyes out (and tried to hug me - it felt so unnatural) after I had told her for the umpteenth time, only for her to revert back to her old self a week later. wine is needed

I am at present grieving for the mother I never had. I have always grieved. I don't think I will ever stop grieving. I think I will stop grieving when she passes. I stopped calling her 'mum' at the age of 9. Referred to her by her first name. I think that I will be at peace when all of my tormenters have passed. I hope that doesn't sound too cruel as it's how I feel.

The fact that I have a child and am doing everything right by them makes the inner child in me scream "what about me?"... "why didnt my mother do this for me?" etc etc. This is my biggest trigger that I have to contend with.

Again... sorry for the "I" "I" "I".. "me" "me" "me" not used to this at all.

rain If you don't lamp 'em, I will please don't let them 'care' for your child. They can't do it. They are toxic to you, but dangerous to your DD.

Stop access. Cut contact whenever possible and move on with your life.

I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

jess i'm so sorry about your mother's availability. If I were you, i'd not chase it up. Let it go into dots again. You can't win, you have no idea of the warped rules these people play to. This was NOT your doing, it's her failure.

We didn't do this. They chose to do it. Because they are toxic.

We need to love ourselves MORE, to make up for the lack from them.

How idiotic these people are! That they can't see the intelligence, humour, empathy, kindness, sweetness that shouts from every single post, even when it's right in front of them.

God, to live that kind of pitiful life, I know it's isolating to be the scapegoat, but it's immeasurably better than being one of THEM.

Inneedofrain,

If they are too toxic for you, they are far too toxic for your vulnerable and defenceless child.

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they?re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents? (and society?s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate first hand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children?s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/toxic-bad-abusive-grandparents#ixzz2VzC0T3dr

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different ? instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.
.

If your parents were not good parents and you are considering whether or not to allow a relationship with your children, consider the following factors, as well as others, before deciding:
?Have they fully addressed their issues in SKILLED long-term therapy? (A few weeks or months is nowhere near adequate if your parents regularly mistreated you).
.
?Have they been treated for all the root causes of their dysfunction or abuse?
.
?Have they sincerely apologized and made amends for the hurtful things they did? Not just said, ?I?m sorry?, but really talked it all through with you over many hours? time?
.
?Are they very different people to you from the ones you remember?
.
?Do you currently have a healthy, functional and stable relationship with them?
.
?Do they respect your choices and boundaries as a parent

I would have to say in your case your parents have done nothing to warrant any form of contact with your good self, let alone your DD.

Surround your DD instead with positive and life affirming role models instead, definately not these two toxic examples of grandparents.

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/toxic-bad-abusive-grandparents#ixzz2VzBRYpFh

Attila, I just wanted to say thank you for that very clear post.

My 'issue' in recent weeks has been with my mother, whom I adore, because of various stuff kicking off in the family at the moment, and because of the confusion of feelings about what she allowed to happen. The current issue is with my step-dad, who has only been about for the past 10 years or so, so not really a big impact on me as I've been an adult as long as he's been around.

However, he's not trusted for several reasons which aren't worth going into, and the same MO from mum came up; he's my partner; you have to respect that.

Well, not really. They're our children, we have to protect them.

She can't see the harm in him, but that doesn't mean there's no harm there. Rather than listen, she defends him.

Anyhow, it's been buzzing around my head for a while, and I don't want to go N/C with her, and we're close as things go, and I love that she's interested in my children. However, I think, from reading that very clear list, that I'm justified in being wary of the children having contact without me.

She doesn't check all of the boxes, which is also nice to know, but she checks enough of them to make me feel confident in my decision.

So like I say; thanks.

I've talked on here before about my mums unpredictable moods and how difficult it is walking on egg shells around her all the time. But I'd like to maybe address her drinking a bit as well. I've recently started to wonder if maybe there is a conncection between the two as alcohol is a depressant isn't it?

Anyway my parents have always drunk, a lot. They are not full blown alcoholics and their drinking has never affected their ability to do their jobs or care for us pr anything like that, but they do drink way too much in my opinion, Well I say, they, but my dad has cut back a lot since he had a health scare a while back and now goes a few days a week without a drink. He's lost weight, sleeps better, has more energy and looks better than he has done in years since doing this. My mum however drinks every single day and can quite easily get through a bottle of wine - sometimes more in one evening all to herself. Now,if I did that I'd be in a coma and not get up for work the following morning, but she does it all the time. What she does in her own home is her business I suppose, but I am allowed to think its excessive and it is in my opinion.

I grew up thinking that it was normal for adults to drink every single night until they were slurring their words or passed out on the sofa. It was only when I got older that I realised it wasn't normal and not all adults drank like this.

Now my dad has addressed his drinking and has cut right down, which I mentioned earlier, but my mum is still in denial about it and no one is allowed to pass comment on it or even make a joke about it. Anyone who does gets jumped on immediately.

I think deep down she knows she drinks far too much but for whatever reason doesn't want to stop. She's put a lot of weight on recently and she concedes this may be down to the ammount of alcohol she pours down her neck, however there are numerous excuses as to why she can't stop. She needs it to help her unwind, if she goes out with friends and she hasn't had a drink for a while she'll become drunk more quickly (WTF?), soft drinks don't quench her thirst... I could go on forever. Occasionally she will have a day where she doesn't drink and then start up again. She's not drunk everyday, someways she's will only have one. Others she'll neck a bottle.

When out she's an embarassing nightmare. She drinks until she can't stand up and my dad will have to carry her home. She thinks she's the life and soul of the party when pissed but really she's just loud and obnoxious and I suspect most people thinks she's sad and a joke, not fun or lively. No social event is off limits and she recently made a show of herself at a family christening.

Anyway I'm rambling now. But I needed to get this off my chest. I rarely drink and go weeks without touching a drop. I don't even have it in the house. I'd hate for my kids to see me in some of the states I saw her in.

That is a good list to look at Attila - and that website is really interesting.

Thanks to everyone else who has commented - jessjessjess yes she does know how to change nappies. She's quite happy to change a newborn's but now that it's all a bit more unpleasant I think she tries to get out of it by 'not noticing'. Perhaps also a bit of a passive aggressive go at me for not toilet training him yet. I am thinking of asking her if she 'toilet trained' us by simply leaving us in filthy nappies....

Also I did check the bag I'd left and there were the same amount of nappies as I'd come with, but she has another stash I've left there so she may have used one of those.

Think I'm going to say to her that she needs to check his nappy (she claims that she asks him and he says no - er, he's two, he says no to everything!) and if she can't be arsed changing his nappy then to call me and I will drive over and do it myself. I'm going to make it very very clear. I will also only be leaving him there for a few hours next week so that there's less chance of it being an issue.

This arrangement of her having him will only last until the end of the year as then his little playmate starts school full-time, and I'm not leaving him there on his own. Thanks for your comments. I am still undecided (and I know that it should be clearcut, but it isn't) but I will give it one more week and if she can't do as I ask I will end the arrangement. If I do there will be fallout and you will be hearing more from me!

Welcome Samnsung and Inneedofrain. Sorry you need to come here at all but you'll find plenty of support and words of wisdom. Good luck samsung with going no contact. And glad to hear you are seeing someone about all of it who supports you in that decision. It's so hard when your mother simply denies what she did or failed to do. It's not as if people like us don't want to forgive and have a better relationship, but it's as if these toxic are just incapable of change or admitting they were wrong.

Inneedofrain I can't believe your parents gave your daughter icecream then told her to lie about it, then verbally abused you. Well, I do believe it, but what a horrible way to treat you. I'm so sorry. That is utterly shit of them and I can understand why you are so upset. It's crazy behaviour. You are not being unreasonable.

Hissy such a good point about how it's isolating to be a scapegoat, but how much worse to be one of them. I will remember that the next time I get dumped into my scapegoat role.

Fog glad your day picked up. You sound like a good mother to me. Reading with your child in bed is a good end to any day, however exhausting, I find.

as if these toxic parents*, that should be

and I know that it should be clearcut, but it isn't

At the moment, I'm still at the point of thinking that nothing in any of this is clear cut, so perhaps don't beat yourself up about that (It should be easy for me to drop my dad, but I still panic when he's under attack and want to rescue him). You have a plan, which is a good thing.

Celtic I am by no means an expert on alcoholism, though I do have a number of alcoholic friends (which sounds odd, but it isn't; I know them from a very specific place). What I've learned from them is that this; their drinking has never affected their ability to do their jobs or care for us isn't necessarily a sign either way, whereas this; 'there are numerous excuses as to why she can't stop.^ would ring a lot more alarm bells.

But this is just second hand information from me. I think there are places on this board where there are people know a lot more about it, and it might be worth asking for help on how to deal with it.

I've heard both good and bad things about Al-anon, but it might be if you go and have a chat with people there, or just look at their website, they might be able to make things clearer too.

Looking, I've always felt that my mum has unresolved issues from childhood. Her own mum was very difficult. She wasn't really maternal, was selfish and often said things that was were breathtakingly rude and insensitive. She didn't care if she upset or offended you either. I don't think my mum had it easy growing up because she's often said that she was the black sheep of their family.

My day's mum is kind, loving and caring, even as a very young child I can remember thinking that my mum's mum wasn't as nice as my dad's mum.

I'm not making excuses, but I've often thought that maybe my mums difficulty in accepting criticism or her inability to accepting that she's wrong about something comes from her upbringing. Because my Nan criticised everything and often belittled the opinions and beliefs of others.

CelticPixie My parents' parents are awful and I see why they are the way they are. But it pisses me off that I have the self-awareness to realise this, spot the toxicity and break the cycle. If they'd done that... well, things would've been different.

I think you can understand how people came to be as they are, without absolving them, if that makes sense.

The best thing is my mum talks about her own mother like she was Saint. She laughs off the unpleasant things like that she did to her, like not speaking to her for a year because she and my dad chose to get married in a registry office instead of a church. "Oh that was just her way" she says. If you bought her a present for her birthday or for Christmas she'd let you know if she didn't like it. My mum thinks these things made her endearing, but it's not endearing at all, it's rude, disrespectful and unpleasant.

I'm so glad that I'm self aware enough to try not repeat these behaviour patterns with my own DD's. Hopefully I have broken the cycle, but I have so much baggage.

Sorry I haven't read all the other posts yet. Will go back and read later - just wanted to get my thoughts down. Finding things tough today, think it's partly due to forthcoming Fathers Day.

Does anyone else feel like they never really fit in/ belong to a group? Gone NC with my parents, but even before that they never even knew the real me and wouldn't have cared anyway. I have two siblings who i get on well with but they have their own lives to lead. I have a lovely husband, but my own insecurities mean that i often worry about not being good enough or 'failing' at my marriage. I do not have any children/ no plans either, so will never have that close relationship either.

I don't really have any friends, only one who i speak to every few weeks on the phone. We are not as close as we were - I guess like most people, she has severeal close friends and she also lives far away, so I am not a priority for her. I am well-liked at work but do not have anyone who i am close to and i tend to be quite shy and reserved there. I get on really well with my mother in law, and we meet up socially for lunch/ girly time, which I know she enjoys too... But despite wishing she was, she is not my mum, and I even get a little jealous when i see her and her daughter together - it is something i will never have. My mother in law is leaving on friday for two months in Australia, and I actually feel a bit upset/ abandoned - how nuts is that?!

I am generally well-liked but I feel awkward in most social situations and Wish that I had somewhere that i 'belong' (except having cuddles with my dogs). I have tried so many times to improve things but it still doesn't change things deep down. I have done a lot to improve my confidence, had counselling etc which has been great, but i am beginning to think i will never have that effortless closeness that other people have in their lives. That makes me so sad, and i think it is probably partially down to never having that unconditional love as a child, never being good enough and not having healthy role models.

Don't really know the point of writing on here, but i just feel a bit down today. Thanks to eveeryone for reading!

Milly, I just wanted to let you know I have read, and all I can give is hugs right now.

But yes, I am socially confused a lot.

Milly, I'm a long time lurker on this thread and feel I need to respond to your post because it really struck a cord with me. I just want to say that you're not alone in feeling like this. I think it's part of growing up with dysfunctional parents, that that first and fundamental sense of belonging is just not there, or not there in the same way as it is in functional families. I don't know if it's any consolation to know that I and probably lots of people feel similar.

You're not alone Milly. I feel exactly the same

Although I find it a real effort to ring anyone at all and wonder if they even want to hear from me when I do. I do not feel like I fit in at all. I second guess myself constantly.