"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

It's a bit like grief, Jess. You're feeling the loss of and mourning the relationship you should have had with them. It's coming on in waves because you don't have a clear ending.

It's very odd, and similar to where I am with my dad. Is he not talking to me? How would I know the difference? Maybe he's made the active choice and is living out the fantasy wherin he never had the third child who he never wanted and that if had ended with the miscarriage that he told everyone he wanted.

It doesn't seem fair though.

Sometimes I fantasize that he comes around here and attacks me just so I can have the closure of being able to have him arrested for assaults. It's stupid. I don't want to be assaulted. But I want some kind of closure for all of the other assaults where nothing was done and nobody cared.

That won't happen though. If I were ever to call the police on him, he'd be the victim.

Is there anything that you can do for you? To sympolically assert the fact that it is your choice, even if you don't discuss it with them. Something like ceremonially burning old family pictures of them. Burying a memory box in the garden. Just something so that you can reclaim that 'it's over' feeling.

Part of me wishes I hadn't done it. If I'd carried on trying to maintain a relationship, I could carry on kidding myself that they'd notice and care if they didn't hear from me, I could carry on living in this fantasy. I'm not sure if that would have been easier. It probably wasn't better, because I guess I have to face up to reality in order to deal with it.

I'd say I've gone minimum-contact rather than NC, but that has effectively turned into NC with my dad. As I say, my mum has texted me a couple of times. Last time I saw her, I gave her some stuff my dad wanted (he likes a particular supplement in a newspaper we buy so I've got into the habit of saving it for him) and I just haven't heard from him since, even to say thanks for the papers. Now when we get the weekend papers, I still put those supplements into a pile, except sometimes when I chuck them in the recycling bin and then feel oddly guilty about it.

Five months and not so much as a phone call from him. And the thing that's messing with my head is that I hate him, I don't want to talk to him, and yet I want a dad who wants to talk to me, and I don't have another dad. It's not really over, exactly, it's in some weird kind of limbo. We live on the same frigging bus route, if you believe it, what the hell was I thinking? (DH and I moved to a lovely area where we both wanted to live, where we have a lovely social circle/support network. Not giving all that up just to avoid the toxics.) So now I hide out on the top deck whenever I get the bus. It's ridiculous.

I think I need to talk to my therapist about this, to be honest. I haven't told him my parents don't really seem to care if I'm around or not, even though he knows about stuff from the past, as it's such a humiliating thing to have to admit. I don't get what the hell is wrong with me. People tell me I'm a nice, sensitive person, a good listener, clever, funny, so why would they reject me - not a question anyone can answer, and one that isn't really about me but their own backgrounds, but it still hurts.

Fog, what you said about wanting him to come round and attack you makes perfect sense - you want to make up for all the other times when you didn't have the power or ability to stand up for yourself, because you couldn't (not because you didn't, important distinction).

Jess - i'm so sorry that you are in so much pain. I agree with Fog that it is very much a grieving process. I am still struggling with it myself, but it is definately getting easier with time.

I went NC with my mum after years of her abuse and drama. Dad is an enable but I was always a daddy's girl and have made endless excuses for him over the years. Turns out that he is not the man I thought/ pretended he was. He doesn't want anything to do with me unless I sort things out with mum. That is not going to happen.

Obviously I expected him to be hurt but the 'hero daddy' would have fought for me and would have done anything for his kids. Turns out that a phonecall is too much effort. So I fully get that you want a dad that wants to talk to you.

But I have mostly accepted things with my dad now and tell myself that at least now I know the truth and can stop kidding myself. But the truth hurts...

I agree that some sort of closure might help you. Several people suggested to write a letter but not to send it, as a way of getting your feelings out. As corny as it sounds, I did write a letter to my dad saying how hurt and betrayed I felt. Then I kept it and put it in a drawer. It may even help to burn it. It was a way for me to free up some head space - instead of all those thoughts continuing round my head, I put them on paper. It does seem to have helped in stopping things going round and round in my head. Maybe it will help you too.

Another thing that helps me is having a photo of me and me siblings as a child, on display. I look at how young and vulnerable we were and remind myself that I did not deserve the abuse, and rejection. I was just a child and it was not my fault. I also look at this photo whenever I feel guilty about NC and remind myself that the sort of people who would treat a child like that do not deserve my sympathy.

Fog I meant to say I'm sorry your dad made you feel so unwanted.

Milly thanks for your post. I'm so sorry to hear about what's happened with your dad. That's a good suggestion about the photo. Not sure I'm ready to go through the thought process of writing a letter but can see how it would help.

Maybe in another life we'll get to have one of those hero dads we haven't had, huh. When I was about 20 I called my dad because (to cut a long story short) I was stranded in a doorway 120 miles from home as my mum had forgotten about me and fucked off to France. He said "What d'you expect me to do about it," and put the phone down.

I used the letter more as a vent for all the hurt - was written mostly in anger. It wasn't a case of being 'ready'. I just found I had all these thoughts (what about the time when? Why did you? Etc). Some of these thoughts were distracting me from other things, not being able to sleep etc and then I would remeber something else. I also added to the letter a couple of times too. It just helped me get things out. But I am aware that it might not be right for you/ wrong time. This whole process is about putting yourself first... Maybe counselling would work better for you. I Have found it very helpful in the past when working through some difficult things re my mother.

Milly, thanks for your posts on this. It was your other thread that made me slightly weepy earlier in the week, and led me to start posting here, which has helped an awful lot.

Basically, the situation you are in is sort of mirrored in mine, in that my dad was the abusive one, and Mum been my sort of saviour for a good 15 years now. But a big part of me is beginning to poke at the very sore spot that's crying out; 'why the fuck didn't she do more to protect us?'

For a long time I assumed she was beaten too. I know there are stories of her being outside our bedroom door when we were very tiny, sitting there and refusing to let him into the room when we didn't settle.

I assumed that she was there taking the beatings, but she's told me recently that though he was regularly shouty, he was never aggressive to her. She points out that she's always been able to talk him down when he's been very upset. And it had me reeling with injustice. She knew what he was like, she knew we were completely unequipped to do anything about it, and she stayed with us in the house until I was 16.

I know it's always complicated, and I do really want to give her some slack, because she clearly thought she was doing the right thing staying, but it left us so vulnerable. And that hurts. He shook her three month old baby because he wouldn't sleep, and she still let him stay in the house and go on to have three more children. She knew that my relationship was getting very strange and difficult during my teens, but she didn't do anything. It wasn't until he got my sister against the wall in a choke-hold that she finally gave up and left, and even then, she asked Sis (who was 17) whether she wanted her to leave. Who puts that decision on their child?

So it's hard. I know, for absolute certain, that I could not survive without my mum. She's been so necessary for my survival for a good few months now. But she has the most hideous blind-spots when it comes to men. Her current man is so awful he literally makes my flesh crawl. He's deeply unplesent in every which way, but she just can't see it and she's made it clear that he is her partner and we have to accept him, so what can I do?

It's just with men that she's so lacking, and I can sort of see why when I look at her background and so forth. But I still wonder why she didn't do anything to protect us.

Unless she thought she was, by staying. Which she might well have.

I'm not ready to give up excusing her yet.

Fog I'm sorry, that's a lot of difficult stuff to deal with. I think there's a process of excusing, then anger, then finally coming to understand why they are the way they are. Which isn't the same as excusing or justifying them, just finding some sense in there somewhere.

I am finding counselling/therapy helpful but also very hard as it brings up so many feelings.

Bloody hell. Just taken the risk of posting a reverse AIBU and even that lot think my parents are toxic...

Fog - sorry about your situation and that my posts made you teary. But if that brought you back here then that was a good thing. And as for you not being ready to stop the excuses, i'm not sure I am either sometimes. I am mostly Accepting of the truth I think, but the reason why we made these excuses for many years means that they must have helped up deal with things. So I think full acceptance will take time.

I also agree with Jess about counselling. i had counselling a few years ago to deal with my feelings about my mum, and the knock on effects of low self esteem, confidence, anxiety issues. I found it very helpful to talk things through. I was lucky enough to find a wonderful counsellor and I do think that is important. I find these boards helpful and do not feelI need further counselling re dad, but if I did I would not hesitate.

Jess - if people agreed with you on the AIBU board, then you MUST be talking sense as they don't mix there words!

God - mother's birthday Monday. Was in a supermarket today & thought I'd better send her a card. Looked at them all with their "Wonderful Mum" or "The World's Best Grandma" & just couldn't it!! It's a lie!

themidwife they're awful arent they? I've always found it terribly upsetting looking through card sections for the same reason. It brings home what you should have and don't. I recommend avoiding the named relative ones and looking at some generic arty type cards instead.

Milly I know, right?! The AIBU validation has helped but also come as a shock due to how unanimous it was.

I think giving up the excuses is very hard as that means starting to really feel the rage, sadness etc that you've maybe packed away.

Midwife - I completely understand the agony of choosing cards for your mum. Before coming on MN i thought it was just be who spent forever searching for the perfect card - nothing too mushy or complimentary, so that I didn't feel like a hypocrite. If I can't find anything suitable I tend to buy a blank card instead, but then it looks so empty without some gushing message about how much I love her... So tricky, and depressing.

Unfortunately this shitty supermarket had no blank ones. Ill try Waitrose tomorrow! They're bound to have some overpriced arty ones!

Fortunately, every birthday card I ever had from Dad said 'Dad'. That's it. Not even 'To Foggy'.

This makes it very easy to find a message for him.

I honestly think if you're going to send a card, 'Dear Mum, Happy birthday, from Midwife,' is an acceptable message.

I hope that Monday isn't too tricky for you.

I'm having a bad day. I keep shouting at the children for doing normal child things. It's not good behaviour, and I've told them before and it's driving me mad, so some reaction is necessary. But I keep hearing myself and thinking 'I sound just like him.'

I'm utterly convinced I'm screwing my children up. Plus, I hate myself when I'm like this.

It's the guilt. They forgot my birthday completely a couple of times but I feel guilty at the thought of not bothering with hers.

Yy to birthday cards. My dm normally gets a Caroline gardiner (from waitrose midwife) with a simple happy birthday in it. I really struggle over the words "mum" and "love" so the message will read "to mother happy birthday meery, dh and dc".

Wow Fog, hugs.

I went NC with my father - at least 15 years ago, he was a violent drunk and I don't regret going NC in the slightest.
I found John Bradshaw's book 'healing the inner child' very good.

Im considering going NC with my mother now, she is very toxic, lies, is selfish and manipulative and in recent times was inexcusably violent to my elderly grandfather, been sectioned under the mental health act, now off her meds and im fed up with the constant stress.

Hoping to get some insight into this situation... my mother has my DS (who is 2.5) once a week. He seems to enjoy it, mostly because another GC is there at the same time and they have a great time together.

But every time I pick him up he has a soiled nappy. I've written about this before under another name. She says she doesn't notice, or she asks him if he has a dirty nappy and he says no so she leaves it. Today when I went round I said oh, he's got a dirty nappy again. He's always got a dirty nappy. She came in to me as I was changing him and started talking about something unrelated, which is what she does when she knows I'm not happy about something, simply pretends it isn't happening.

My dad was there as well and both of them knew I was angry, as I left very quickly once I'd changed him, but neither of them said much. I don't know if I should be giving her the benefit of the doubt - maybe she genuinely doesn't notice, maybe he's only just done it? - or is she just not prepared to change him, or trying to tell me I should toilet train him.

If I cancel the agreement it will mean I don't get a break, and he genuinely seems to enjoy being there. I don't know if I'm overreacting. Also if i cancel it I will be made to feel really bad, and he won't see his little friend... i really don't know what to do. I am thinking of giving it one more chance and then if I come next week and he's got a dirty nappy I will say it's not working and we can start again once he's toilet trained.

Oscalito,

A frustrating situation, my mum wouldn't change nappies either, used to make a big thing about it and laughed (despite her DGC being uncomfortable or having nappy rash). Personally, I would weigh up the pros and cons, if its only for a morning and you're getting a break, can you live with it knowing as soon as you see your DC you'll change their nappy? OR is it a point of principle and you'd rather not be ignored? Trying to deal with unreasonable behaviour just leaves you feeling like you're going mad so I'd save your breath, she's not going to change the him. Having been there I know how shocking it can be to see your mother not care for their own DGC.

You know in your gut what you want to happen and you need to stand by what you know is right. I am finding with my own situation the more you stand up for yourself the better you feel...its not easy though.

Thanks Tyniclogs. I suppose I can live with it. He really doesn't seem bothered, though I am getting there a bit earlier now so he doesn't have such a long time with her. You've said what I wanted to hear, really.

I do need to stand up to her more but it's very hard as she is someone who has an extreme response to any criticism - sulking, tears, anger, threats... it's simply not possible to express a request or POV that she disagrees with and have her respect it or see it as reasonable and fair.

And yes, I do feel like I'm going mad. i also feel sad because it's really sinking in that they are really pretty crap at caring, they just don't have the skills and never will. But I know I don't need to explain that to anyone on this thread. Thanks again for writing and understanding what I'm on about. Sorry you have the same stuff in your life, but you sound as if you are a bit more accepting, which is where I need to get to.

If you know your child is suffering, physically, as you do, how can you allow this to carry on?

I understand the desire for a break, but at what price?

My mother wouldn't let my t7yo change out of the too-small clothing she (pretty bloody sure knowingly) bought IN HIS YEAR SIZE, he's the tallest in his class ffs. He asked and she guilt tripped him into keeping them on for THREE hours.
He actually looked distressed and uncomfortable when I got there. He'd not been given his tea, they were waiting for me ffs. I was very upset.

I don't get a break, I wish I did sometimes, but the most wonderful person in my life suffers for me to have one? No. Under no circumstances.

You can take this situation back under your control. You don't have to confront them, you just have to change arrangements.

The thing is Hissy, I don't know that he's suffering. She claims that she checks, and for all I know he has had a dirty nappy for five minutes. I just don't know. She claims not to have noticed.

He did come home very upset once - I rang up and he was crying, and she offered to drive him home immediately. When he came in he had a dirty nappy and seemed very upset. I think there is a limit to the time she can have a child around without getting bored and ignoring them.

Since then I get there earlier to pick him up, and he is no longer there alone with her, I make sure the other GC is with him at all times.

He really loves going and the two children get along really well and play the entire day. As well as me getting a break, he gets to spend an entire day playing with another child and being an only child really loves that... so it's difficult to just cancel the arrangement. I am toilet training him now (with limited success... in fact no success) so hopefully this won't be an issue for much longer.

It may be that I have to shorten the day further, and have another word to her about changing his nappy. I might give it one more go and if I go next week and he's got a dirty nappy then I cancel.

I think that sounds very reasonable, Oscalito.

I think that's a good compromise, but allowing a child to sit in shit is making them suffer.

Is he not sore? Poor thing!

He's neglected in her care. Whether for 5 minutes or 5 hours. Do you provide nappies? Do you know how many there are at the time you leave him, and how many there are when you pick him up? What about wet nappies? Does she change those, or does she leave him in that too?

If this were a CM, you know you'd be pulling her up for it.

Remember the dynamic of abuse? Your lad doesn't know he's being neglected.

This isn't acceptable. Tell your M to see to the nappies, or you will find someone who will.

I's unfathomable as to how the PAIR of them allow this to happen to a baby.