"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I can just hear her wanting to pretend he's at death's door just to emotionally blackmail me...

This is such a classic tactic, Bisley. Dad has been on at me to see his mother because 'she's literally only got weeks left' since last May.

I don't see much of Dad, though I haven't been strong enough to go NC with him, but I've made it very clear I have no intention of going. He agreed it should be my choice and he would be hypocritical to 'make' me (he's been NC, talking, NC, dutiful son, NC, building bridges with her since as long as I can remember). But while saying this, he's been piling on the pressure, made my brothers call me to ask me (they sounded utterly guilty when they did so, and when I said no, gave me relieved 'OK then!' comment), and my sister gave him an earful when he asked her to do the same. But still he keeps on. He even approached my husband who he barely knows about it. Husband didn't even bother mentioning it until I mentioned that he's been on at my siblings over my failure to be dutiful daughter.

As it happens, my grandma is well over 90, so eventually she is bound to die. It happens. Yet for some reason, this last 'she's really very ill...' has failed to make a dent on her ability to just keep on living.

Last time I saw him, he mentioned she's leaving money to me in her will 'but you still get to make your own decision...'

I've made it, I don't want her money, so accept it, and fuck off.

It actually isn't about me and her at all. It's all about me and him. I'm a clear example to all and sundry of how he can't control his children and I'm a taint on him because I won't do as he commands. I have no interest in seeing her either; she's a horrible woman. She's controlling and manipulative and I don't much fancy being pally with someone like that. But it's the me/Dad relationship where the real strain is.

Sorry; I didn't mean to go off on one about my issues. Just wanted to say that sometimes people just won't die even when they threaten to to get you do do what they want all over again. Nobody ever appears surprised by their ability to cheat death.

So here you go - have some compassion towards yourself - you deserve it, you have the ability in you to be deeply compassionate to you, and it's not your fault that you need to fill that compassion void that's been left by them.

Oh hissy that is really horrible!

I have had my posts deleted because I was worried about being identified in RL. I now it's very unlikely, I'm almost certain my parents wouldn't find it themselves but someone else might have recognised me and pointed them towards this thread (though it would be a pretty shitty thing to do knowing what I've gone through). I know now that lots of posts on the last few pages don't make sense and my replies to people have been deleted so apologies for that. It wasn't possible to delete only some of my posts. I will continue to post though.

Oscalito You don't need to apologise. I know that reading/posting on this thread is not always easy and brings back lots of feelings so I am prepared for that. I'd processed a lot of what happened but what you said made me see my relationship with my father in a way I hadn't considered before, and I found it quite difficult and unsettling. I'm glad though that I've been able to see it now so hopefully I can move on from it all rather than realising in some years and having everything dredged back up again. Part of me is still hoping it's not true but I know in my heart that it is.

Thanks again to everyone that responded to me, I can't tell you how much it has meant.

Oscalito, I'm so sorry about your dear dog. I wonder with horror if the neglect of pets is another recurrent theme with toxic parents? My parents professed to love animals more than people, yet let a rabbit die in pain- a fly had laid eggs under it's skin and maggots infested it. Any sane person on discovering this would take the animal to the vet, but no, they "looked after it at home" and it died a terrible death drawn out over days. Repeatedly with their dogs they ignored cuts and things that needed stiches really until the poor creatures became really sick with infection...and sometimes kept dogs alive for months when I think most animal lovers would have thought the animal was suffering and it would be kinder to put them to sleep. Why is that? Is it lack of empathy? Is it being too tight to pay the vet? Or is it selfishness e.g. my dog meets a need in me and so I want to keep it, so what if it's sufering?

I so love my dog, but if/when the time comes I'll put her needs above mine without question.

I wonder that to, Winding.

Dad had such a DIY attitude to animal care.

I wonder about the chickens. His argument was that if you're going to eat meat, you should understand the whole killing process. TBF, I sort of agree with him there.

But the method he used to teach that was utterly wrong. If we had at any point been told that we were rearing the chickens for meat (we weren't either told, or doing that), then that would have been one thing. If we were a farm or small holding where animals were commodities, then food, then again, fair enough. But the situation was that they were our pets, we named them, we liked to look in the henhouse for eggs etc. They were egg-laying pets.

Similarly to the stories here - there was no notice. No 'remember kids, we're fattening the chickens up for X meal in September...' It was just now you see them, now they're gone. My decision is the only one that's even slightly relevant.

Anyhow, yes, I think it's a weird one, and yes, I think it's part of the MO. The world exists solely for their benefit. Relationships aren't meant to be reciprocal - if they're not getting anything out of it, or worse, if they are required to put in a tiny bit of effort for the sole benefit of someone else, then they just aren't interested.

It's funny, yesterday when I was reading and not posting, I cried a lot. Now I'm posting (too much - sorry), I'm not sad at all. Just angry.

Oh and DrugsDontWork, I just wanted to wave and say hi to you. I read your posts and the ones around it. I know exactly what you mean, and I had a similar revelation a few months ago, and it's bloody painful and very strange. It's one of the many confusing things that are still too confusing for me. So take care of yourself.

Yes it's all of the above for my mother. She's stingy about paying for vet care, didn't want to let the pet go (even though its life was a struggle) and doesn't really feel empathy. A lot of her odd behaviour makes perfect sense to me if I remember that she doesn't do empathy.

Fog I am often furious. i think it's healthy to be angry. The trick is to manage it (something i struggle with, i tend to explode whereas if I feel the anger without mindlessly exploding it tends to have a clearing-the-fog effect on my feelings about my family of origin).

I feel as if i'm hogging this thread too so am going to take my ds off for stories and bedtime (it's night here).

Ladies I am taking in all your pet stories and cannot believe how anyone could be so cruel (to the animals and their dc), but I do need to have a self-pitying wallow that has been triggered by the stories of folk trying to maintain contact as a relative is at death's door.

My story is the opposite, my df had been ill for sometime but there was always hope that he could recover. Just as I returned from hospital after having dc1 (late and torrid emergency cs) dm chose to share the fact that his illness was in fact terminal and he had weeks at most. She had forbade df from mentioning this to me.

OK she did not want to upset my pregnancy, but on reflection I was probably in a worse physical and emotional state for hearing such news 2 days after a cs than during pregnancy. I believe that she took away my last chance of seeing my df (if I had known sooner I may have had a chance to deliver early and be able to travel to him - long shot but i'll never know).

Meery, I'm so sorry for your loss.

And I'm also sorry if I sound flippant about the dying relative. I should take more note that my experience is not universal. The thing is, Grandma has been dying on and off for nearly 40 years. I'm not kidding; my dad was told to wait before marrying mum, because she only had weeks to live, so why upset her now when you can just wait? I've just got to the point where I'm not prepared to dance to that particular tune any more. Plus, if you want people to attend your 'death bed', perhaps try not to be so bloody horrible.

I visit my Nan regularly, who is lovely. At some point I will lose her, so do want to make the most of now. But that's because she's not a horrible person.

Your mum's manipulation of that particular event was awful. I wonder if it's compounded by the 'I know what's best for Meery...' attitude. I'm sorry.

fog absolutely no apology necessary.

Yes, sorry from me too, I didn't mean to sound heartless at the prospect of my dad being in serious ill health. I just know from a previous email that dad has had investigations and has been given the all clear, and he is a massive hypochondriac, and mum is a manipulative cow, so it all adds up to there very probably being nothing wrong with him at all.

On the morning of my wedding my father managed to strain his thumb trying to unlock my front door. He moaned and fussed about it so much I insisted he went to my gp surgery to get it looked at, as I didn't want there to be permanent damage done just because he hadn't got treatment in time. I also knew that if he didn't go to the GP we would not have heard the end of it, All Bloody Day. He acted like it was this massive inconvenience to go to the doctor, and tried to find loads of reasons not to go, I think he realised he had totally overdone the attention seeking. But there was no way I was going to let him be such a drama queen and stress me out hours before I was supposed to be getting married.

Mum did her fair share of winding me up that morning too. When I met up with DH just before we headed off to the register office, I told him never to leave me alone with my family again .

That's awful Meery. I'm sorry you didn't have the chance to see your DF.

Do you think there was an element in your Mum's behaviour that's " Oh I see you've had a drama, well don't get above yourself and expect attention as I can top that...I've been keeping a secret, for your benefit you understand, but now you're at a low ebb and really need me I'm going to offload....pay attention to me and my special drama."

My Mum loved to phone you with news of a death and how it had upset her.......the last one she managed before her own death went like this.....
Mum: Guess what Windingdown, David Barby is dead. I'm so very upset and shocked, it's awful, what a nightmare.
Me: Oh how awful for him and his poor family Mum. I'm sorry you're upset, but I don't remember who he is.
Mum: Yes it's awful. He had a stroke. It makes me worried for myself as we're the same age. I'm so upset.
Me: Yes mum. Who was he? How do you know him?
Mum: You know him Windingdown, He's the bloke on Bargain Hunt.
Me:

OK, that's made me snigger inappropriately.

The silly, silly woman.

Windingdown you made me laugh too!

As for why dm decided that was the appropriate moment to tell me, I really don't know. Maybe she did genuinely think it was for the best. It's just the way that we interact with each other and the insight I now have into her mo makes me wonder....

As for you bisley how very dare you carry on with your wedding on the day that your father had such a serious injury

My BIL was once dying apparently and told everyone he only had a certain number of weeks left to live.

He's still on this planet.

Cackling like a loon here! That's hilarious!

Clearly NOT cackling an the non-dying BIL...

It was and remains a very nasty piece of emotional blackmail from the narc BIL.

I was physically and mentally abused by my parents for many years but they pretend like it didn't happened and i'm an over dramatic person etc. The trouble is even after everything all i want id there love and approval. This is now as a grown woman with a ds and dd on the way and a lovely husband.I was an only child I still crave my mothers love which i never really get I don't know how to break the need iyswim as I know i will never be good enough I have polished and agreed with them that it was as much my fault when i was young but it really wasn't. Is there light at the end of the tunnel how do i break the cycle because it keeps pushing back into depression?

Can you imagine how twisted, how far from reality and how completely without regard for others' feelings you have to be to tell your loved ones you are dying? How do you think the liar imagines the story playing out? How stupid and insignificant they must think we are.

Falcon, I'm sorry, I don't know of a way, but I'm very new to all of this. Have you ever had any success with therapy?

The only thing I can suggest is to focus on your children rather than your parents.

Hello Falcon, I'm also pretty new here and if you're new too you have come to a very helpful and supportive place. The stately homes threads are full of people like you and I who, despite having made contented new lives for ourselves, are still battling with a need for approval that wasn't there for us. What I find helpful is doing heaps of reading about toxic parents and the effects they have on us, it helps me understand and work through my thoughts and feelings, even those I wish I didn't have. It helps me see that I'm not overdramatic or making it up however much I was told I was.

You said "I know I will never be good enough" You certainly are damn good enough, you're more than good enough...it's their fault and their loss if they didn't see it. And most importantly, none of this is your fault, abuse is never the child's fault.

Therapy helps, so if you're not already getting this seek it out. Talking to those you love helps. Keep posting on here because the love and shared expereince you get on here will absolutely help and more than anything it will show you you're not alone.

Something in the school playground made me weepy today.

DD was in her summer dress and playing on the climbing frame and it sent me into a bit of an emotion v. logic meltdown.

All my life I was taught that sex was bad, my body was too alluring, I needed to be covered up, we must not talk about sex, everything was just a danger. My sex was not good enough and my sexuality even less so (I'm bi - very disappointing, apparently). I remember he once hit me when I accidentally walked in on him in the bathroom. He hadn't locked the door, but I got hit.

What got me in the playground is there was my daughter, up the frame, all legs and arms basking in the sunshine, utterly oblivious to the world and totally innocent.

But my mind instantly started running down 'she needs to cover her knickers - boys can see!' 'Don't be silly; she's being totally innocent. It's just my mind that's broken. 'My mind? Am I sexualising my child even just thinking this? Am I a predator?' 'Oh God! The main thing is I mustn't let her know I even had these thoughts! I'll destroy her if I do!'

And then I realised I was in a panic, and I couldn't just enjoy the sight of my beautiful daughter playing because of how twisted my head is.

Thank you for making me welcome I think it will be wise for me to get the toxic parents book and read it maybe it will give me more clarity. I think its all coming to a head as i'm having a daughter.

Lookingthroughthefog That must have been horrid for you. I was also told sex is bad and bodies are to be covered so you're not alone. I wake up most days just in my pants (being pg and roasting hot at night plus the thought of wearing a bra in bed right now) Ds see me mostly naked at various points but i have to remind myself there is nothing wrong with that every day. Just keep reminding yourself you know what is normal and not xxx

I've found having children utterly confusing, Falcon. Overriding everything is the desperate need not to turn into my father, and I seem to have no parenting instincts at all, so I'm constantly battling what I feel against what I think. It's exhausting. Simultaneously, I keep coming back the fact that I just can't imagine how he did what he did. I love my children, and my overriding concern is to protect them, sometimes at all costs. I don't understand how he could have children, and not feel any of that for us?

I have slapped my children on one occasion each. Both times were me being at the absolute end of my sanity, and they were both relatively gentle, but I've never forgotten, and I'll never stop feeling guilty. I hated myself for it instantly, I apologised, I promised it would never happen again.

He hurt us regularly, and he didn't give a shit. If he admits it at all, it was all our fault, or it doesn't matter because he had worse dealt out to him. Mostly he lives in a parallel universe where it simply didn't happen.