"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Mil is now asking when her next visit will be, hard to know what to say to dh in all honesty. In truth she didn't actually do anything bad whilst here last time, but dhs moods after the even led me to believe otherwise.
For now i'm making excuses to dh that the stress will do me no good, i'm 10 weeks pregnant! For now i have told him i cannot even contemplate seeing her until after my scan (not that i am telling any of them) just don't need the stress after my mc in feb. Read through all your stories everyone and it has given me an insight into what my dh may or may not have suffered due to his parents.
He doesn't speak much about his childhood and very rarely talks about it. If i ask him questions, i often get "i can't remember", all i know is that fil beat him, but how or how bad i'll never know. Feel sad he can't talk to me. All i know is that when he has been in contact via phone or text he goes downhill moodwise for days and sometimes weeks. After the first visit with mil, dh seemed to enjoy the day but afterwards seemed distant and moody for atleast a week, almost snappy even.
Even seeing his parents, i'm assuming brings memories for him, so getting back into contact didn't really work tbh. So now sil & mil are on the sideline waiting anxiously for visiting, but don't think i can bare the stress to watch dh cope with it.

Well after going nc with mum, dad phoned for first time tonight... For three minutes, which was just so he could hand the phone over to mum. I calmly said "no, i made myself clear before." Dad: "ok bye."

So guess he has made himself clear. He obviously hasn't even missed me enough to chat. Before this i used to phone every week and we would chat for at least an hour most times. He obviously does not care at all about our relationship. He just wants to sweep it all under the carpet and carry on as normal... That is not going to happen. I have started feeling much happier the last week. My life is much much happier without mum, and if that is how little dad cares, then i am better without him too. Strange, but i thought i would feel more upset than this - i used to adore my dad. I feel offended by the lack of care/ value they place on me, but sad? No, not sad as such.

Drugs - hope you are ok! I think that if you are that worried about your previous posts then maybe you should ask for them to be taken down. Hard to say if you are overreacting to the photos, but I can relate to some of your post.

I went from a daddys girl to not really wanting to be around him in my teens. i felt very uncomfortable around him, frequently felt he was letching/ looking at my boobs, found explicit porn mags on several occasions where he knew i would find them. He never did anything (i think) though i did wonder whether something had happened and i had suppressed it or something, but i doubt it. Actually i hadnt even remembered any of this until reading your post and haven't told anybody any of that. Funny how you can block certain memories for years. Is it normal to feel creeped out by your father in your teens? I always put it down to hormones/ becoming aware of changes in your body etc.

Pumpkin - i agree with Drugs reply. But also want to share some of why I don't always want to talk about every little thing with my husband. He is very supportive and i share most stuff with him. However, every visit/ phonecall with my mum would have its own drama.

I love the fact that the rest of my life/ my marriage is warm, safe and happy. Often (unless i really need to talk about the latest problem), it is precisely because i value my husband so much that i don't want to share all the stupid little things with him. Sometimes it feels as though my mum has poisoned my childhood and all aspects of my life, and i just want to keep some of the good parts untainted. I want to keep my marriage mum-free as much as possible. I'm probably not explaining it very well, but maybe he doesn't talk to you about his family because he enjoys the normal, loving environment that you provide.

Meery - i hope your weekend with dm wasn't too awful

Butterfly - i also realised exactly how wrong things were with my mum after finding mn a couple of months ago. It was also the catalyst for me reading about narcs and deciding to go no contact.

Hi TheDrugs sorry, I'm really not sure about deleting your posts in case of being identified by your parents, I hope mine can't identify me either (but then we shouldn't be scared of telling the truth about what's happened to us at their hands), hopefully someone will be along to help with that soon but I didn't want you to be panicking alone.
I'm sure you're not over reacting though, one of the legacies our messed up parents have given us is to question & doubt our instincts & leave us not knowing what's 'normal'. FWIW I think finding your father watching porn in his office during the day is not normal, surely he would know you were around? Taking photos of you in your bikini doesn't seem right to me either. Hopefully some more experienced posters will offer their help & wisdom soon, take care.

Thanks milly. We survived but im really sad that our relationship is such that im glad to see the back of her rather than be sad she's gone.

I just hate the things she says to the dc especially when im out of sight. For example, They adore her and asked why she didn't visit more often. She told them it was because i didn't let her. How could anyone say such a thing to a child? I may find her difficult company and prefer not to see her but i would never deliberately worry the dc with it.

I chickened out of calling her on this one. I regret not doing so.

Hi thedrugs - I am sorry that my comments have triggered unsettling feelings for you. It was something I worked out in the safety of a therapy room and I probably should be a little more careful about blurting insights like that out online as they have the potential to be upsetting, especially if the person reading them doesn't have RL support as I did.

I think for me there came a point with my mother - when she came to stay for an extended period of time without my father, who seems to 'contain' her, when I simply had to talk to someone, and I found myself a good therapist. It also coincided with a chat with someone at a work lunch about the value of psychotherapy and I decided I was worth the money and time. It changed my life.

Having a child has definitely brought up a lot of stuff again but I think that is normal.

Anyway I just wanted to say don't panic, get the posts removed if you would feel happier but keep posting here if you find it helpful.

apologies to anyone else if that comment was unsettling/upsetting. it's a big one, but my therapist was very matter of fact when she said it. I think the relationship becoming sexualised or even just changing is normal, but some fathers handle it very badly or become very uncomfortable and that is where the problems start.

Hi all. I just wanted to say hi.

I'm sorry that I'm not capable of sharing much at the moment (I'm hopelessly confused about it all), but I wanted to just share a little solidarity with you all.

Hi all. I'm a long time lurker on this thread and one of the many people who have found it a sanity saver. Some of it has made me feel uncomfortable and terribly sad or just . Thank you so much for sharing your memories and wisdom. It's helped me through a very difficult winter and has encouraged me to start counselling, which I can feel is changing my life.

Not ready to really participate yet, also because I keep thinking that I didn't have it as bad as most others on here, but I'll keep reading. x

More mil nonsense, my dds birthday is coming up soon, so mil wants to buy her shoes-fair enough, no problem with that but she has phoned dh 4 days in a row about what size feet she is, she has been told a size 5, and today mil had said to dh that dd feet can't possibly be that small as her other grandaughters feet are a size bigger and she is a year younger so she is insisting on buying her a larger pair. I despair i really do, it's almost like christmas 2011 when she bought the kids pjs that were 3 sizes too big and insisted they pose for photos next to their nieces who had perfect sized pjs on.
Sorry for rambling but getting sick of my kids getting treated like second best all the time.
Even when mentioning my dd birthday, she has to bring the other grandkids into it. Dh doesn't even notice

Oh pumpkinsweetie my mother does that kind of thing too. Maddening. At least she is insisting on buying a size too big. I would just say, fine, get what you want and at least she will grow into them. But make sure you are clear with her about the size so she knows it's her fault. And when she tries them on and they're too big just say, oh well, we'll put them aside for when they fit. Then pack them away and refuse to engage further.

More madness at my end. My mother rang me to see if I'm going to my cousin's viewing tomorrow. I said, no, I'd prefer to remember her as she was and it's probably best to give the family some space isn't it, seeing as her sister wouldn't have even seen her yet (she flew over after she died). Of course my mother refuses to even take that hint - give those poor people some effing space you ghoulish woman - and says, 'oh well just do as you think best.'

Then she tells me that our family dog was sick all day yesterday and today they finally decided to take him to the vet to have him put down and she rang me tonight to tell me he's gone. I could have said goodbye....! But I'm glad he's gone, the poor dog was so neglected. Our last conversation went like this:
'The dog's looking well isn't he' [dog lying on lawn in sun, not dragging back legs around, so looking fairly normal for once]
'No he looks terrible. I can't believe you still haven't taken him to the vet, it's cruel.'
[mum puts hand on her heart and puts on pathetic voice] 'Oh you shouldn't say things like that. Don't tell me I'm cruel....'
'I didn't say you were cruel, I said it's cruel not to give an animal medical treatment when it clearly needs some.'

And then to top it all off my toxic sister is flying in for the funeral. Oh, god, give me strength. The family of my cousin (siblings and dad) have now said they will handle all the food (were probably feeling a bit pushed around, I suspect, but my sister is still going to have a birthday cake for her daughter at the wake.

this so outs me to anyone who knows me. I may NC soon.....

Sorry to hear about your family dog oscalato
The birthday cake at the wake sounds so "me me me", gosh it seems they have forgot it's a funeral they are going to and not an actual birthday party!

It's sad there seems so many of these toxics out there, but good to know we aren't alone i suppose. Until mn i thought my ils were the only ones and that maybe i should put up with their behaviour, but now i know different.

Exactly. They must wonder why their previously docile daughters and DIL's suddenly adopt a take-no-shit attitude. I find it very very helpful to blab on here and have people tell me my DM and sisters are being bonkers. It is reassuring because they have zero insight into their behaviour.

It's also interesting that so much of the puzzling/slightly odd behaviour could be put down to being a bit thoughtless or insensitive eg getting your kids clothes that are too big for them. But when you hear it from others and it chimes with your own experiences and intuition you somehow know it's not accidental. Previously to MN i would have assumed I was being either oversensitive, overcritical or paranoid.

It's funny (well, not 'funny') about pets, isn't it.

After the divorce, dad had custody of the dog. Mum the children. Several years later, he went away for a year, so had the dog put down. No discussion, no questions. My mum would have taken her like a shot. It's true she (the dog) was elderly and arthritic, but Mum would have been prepared to deal with the vets and medicate when he wouldn't.

Similar story with our pet chickens when we were children. One day he slaughtered them and served them up for lunch, laughing hysterically (mid-meal) when he told us, and then getting cross that we were upset.

It sort of says a lot about his character. All things, including people and animals, are worth his time only as long as he's getting something out of them. Then they're completely disposable.

OK, so apparently I can share the pet stuff. That's a start at any rate.

I'm sorry you lost your pet, Oscalato.

Huge sympathies about the MIL, Pumpkin. It's almost as though she simply cannot comprehend that any people might be different than her perceived opinion of what people 'should' be like. Strange. One of the best things about people is the variety.

That is horrible about the chickens Fog. And about the dog. how spiteful, and how sad for your mother if she would have taken the dog anyway. I don't understand people who think dogs are disposable, which is why I don't have one, too much of a commitment.

Oddly I have another recollection of my mother that's very disturbing to do with animals. I rescued a little bird once, as children do, and put it safely in an egg box. Anyway our old dog got to it and it died.

But did my mother simply say, oh, the bird has died, shall we bury it?

No. She leaned right down into my face as if to watch my expression and said "The dog ate the little bird". And put lots of emphasis on the word ate, as if she was relishing that detail. It is a bit like your dad gathering you all for a meal and then telling you halfway through it's your beloved pets. Sadistic.

Uggh. And yes, sharing the pet stuff is a start. Well done. And thanks for your sympathies about my dog.

pumpkinsweetie My mum does stuff like that too. There's a whole load of back story involving her implying dd1's fussy eating was leading to malnutrition and stunting her growth. She has always been concerned about her being 'so small', and can't seem to accept that she isn't in age appropriate clothes, i.e. she wears size 3-4 when she's 4 (!) she should clearly be in 4-5 by now. When we were looking for a winter coat for dd1 she insisted in making her try on a size 4-5, even though she had already tried on a 3-4 and it was on the big size. Ludicrous behaviour.

Strangely, dd1's eating has improved hugely since I haven't had mum pouring poison into my ear about it.

And as I suspected, my mum has ramped up the attempts to force me into contact. I'm fielding daily phonecalls from her now. They are staying near me while they have some work done on the house and mum has left messages basically threatening that she will keep trying until they go. The tone of voice is definitely anger and threatening, if there was the slightest bit of humility or concern for me I might (might) be swayed, but there isn't, just anger that I'm defying her.

The latest message is that they're going back home, but there's been so much going wrong with the work and dad isn't handling it well and he's 'not looking too good', and she doesn't want me to 'regret not seeing him before... they go back'. I can just hear her wanting to pretend he's at death's door just to emotionally blackmail me, but pulls herself back from it because (I imagine) it's simply not true. She rang off with 'Show some compassion daughter!'. Or at least I think that was the end of the message, I deleted it at that point. I'm just waiting for the strength to delete the messages without listening to them.

Oh god, I just remembered being left alone in the house when I was young (maybe 8/9) and one of my older sisters' gerbils choosing that time to die. I was sitting at the door waiting for them all to get back, absolutely distraught, and was treated like I was over-reacting, over-sentimental and over-sensitive then too. And also, as a teenager, trying to nurse my younger sister's hamster (which she neglected) as it lay dying in my hands. I think my mum was in the same room, ironing or something, and was completely bemused by my attempts. So so cold.

I never asked for a pet of my own as I knew my parents didn't like them. My younger sister on the other hand just went out and bought a succession of hamsters which she then neglected.

Christ, i've had something rumbling around my head for weeks.

When I was about 19, I went on holiday for 2 weeks. I called and spoke to Mum midway through.

She told me she'd sold my beloved horse. I never saw him again. I'm fairly sure this hadn't been discussed. I

That's bad isn't it?

I didn't make a fuss at the time. Didn't feel able to.

If she did it for a reaction, it failed.

If she did it to hurt me. That was a direct hit.

Sorry, heading off into overblown self-pity land there. I'll reel it in :)

Hissy that's awful. I can really identify with not feeling able to make a fuss.