"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Oh Oscalito!! A birthday cake at a wake is bad enough but forcing everyone to sing Happy fucking Birthday?!! Priceless!
I'm sorry I just had to laugh!

Glad it made someone laugh midwife. I'm going to be cringing. And pregnant so stone cold sober too.

Oh no so you can't even get bladdered to ease the pain! Ugghh!

oscalito you're going to have to distance yourself from your dm and dsis as regards catering. I can just see you getting stuck with having to make mounds of egg sandwiches or providing some exorbitant dish i.e. end up doing the stuff dm doesn't want to.

And as for the cake, either practise your bemused aren't they loopy face or use that moment to disappear for a pg loo trip.

Meery DM is in meek mode at present as I've been complaining loudly about the text message she sent me at 2am to tell me my cousin had died.

Normally I wouldn't have complained, it would just be a subtle way of making me feel irrelevant that no one else would have found out about, but thanks to MN I am now pointing out her inappropriate behaviour any chance I get.

So I told her what I was making and she has said fine. She won't eat any of it though, and will go on and on about how
unbelievably amazingly delicious Golden Child's offerings are, though. I will be sending DH to scoff my dishes, though. Two can play this game .

Good for you!

Hi,

I'm sorry to jump on this thread like this, I just feel confused I guess. And guilty. I've been reading your posts and can relate to many.
Today, as I was talking to my mum on Skype, I realised I feel emotionally cold towards my family (mum, dad and sisters). The last 12+months have been difficult, ever since DH and I announced we were expecting our first child (DS). I was depressed during pregnancy and as much as I would not want to point fingers, a lot of it had to do with how my family reacted and how they've treated me since (and obviously how I failed to deal with it all). Their comments made me feel like I did not deserve to be pregnant with DS, I felt like a failure, like an evil person. I felt lonely, and still do. Even with DH and DS and other family and friends. I'm so demanding to be wanting and needing love and support from my parents and sisters.
I had PND, could not bond with my baby, my relationship with DH suffered (both of these are now good) but I still feel emotionless towards my parents and sisters, like there is no bond. I care for them, as you would care about another human being, someone you sort of know, but I don't miss them (we don't live close). As I'm still on ML and money is tight, they've offered to pay for our travel to go see them. My head and heart are screaming 'no, don't go!' but I don't want to influence our DS's relationship with my parents and sisters.
When we look at photos and there are some with my mum or dad, I have to leave the room. It's upsetting, not to the point of crying, but still upsetting. I look at them and think, who are these people??
I did not grow up in violent, abusive home. My dad was away a lot (work) and my mum never had time for me. I was a shy, odd (looking and behaviour wise) child and was made fun of a lot by other kids and my sisters.
I fear that I'm going to be a cold mother, just like my mum is and my DS is always going to feel he's not getting enough love and cuddles from me.
There, I just needed to tell someone. I talk to my DH about this a lot so he must be getting sick of it by now.
Thank you.

Sandra

I would echo what TheDrugsDontWork has written.

You are not going to be like your mother because you have enough insight to realise that your own treatment of yourself as a child was wrong and you would never do that to your own child.

Listen to your heart and head re not going to your parents.

I would also say that if your parents are too toxic for you to deal with, then they are certainly too toxic for your child to have any form of contact with. Your role here as parents is to protect him from such malign influences; he needs both decent and positive role models in his life.

Parenting is very different when we have our eyes open like you Sandra

I'm really glad if anything helps thedrugs - that was a spot on text response! Perhaps I sound sorted thanks.... knowing and feeling tho v. different things! The distanced perspective makes all the difference doesn't it, so much easier to see the wood for the trees for others? and why NC works so beautifully... do keep posting, the best medicine being validation and support through this 'parent disease'...

xxx

Hello, I wondered if I can join this thread please? I read a lot a while ago but thought 'hey, my parents aren't THAT bad' but since telling them how I feel their words & actions have shown me my instincts were right & my relationship with them isn't 'normal' at all. Psychological, emotional abuse from my Mum, the one person in the world you're supposed to be able to rely on, and my father let it happen. I will not repeat it with my beautiful children. As I'm in the process of going NC I thought I might need your support as I'm worried there'll be a backlash when Mum realises what's happening. Am actually in quite a good place at the moment as feel I've come a long way in the last few years but I am aware that that can change so quickly with contact from them and I want to be strong. This thread has been amazing, to find other people who understand & have been through similar helps (although I wish none of us had obviously). Most of my friends have parents who are kind, who love them and so have no idea how it feels when you realise your Mum doesn't like you, doesn't love you & doesn't treat you nicely. Whenever they are in my life things are disrupted, contemplating life without them feels calm & peaceful (though I struggle with the guilt) but it has been their choice all along to treat me like this & to continue when I asked them to change, I am happy that I've done all I can with my Mum (not so sure about Dad yet but think in my heart know he's not going to change & go against my Mum). Just hope I can continue to put the past where it belongs & continue looking forward to a happy, wonderful life. So many of the things I've read on here are familiar & you've inspired me that I can get through this. Just have to remember I am not the problem (as I've been told all my life). Good luck to everyone else dealing with this.

Hello TheDrugs, thank you for your kind words. I've been reading your posts and agree it really does help to 'talk' and get it out rather than have everything going round in your head. I'm sorry I don't feel qualified to answer your question about whether your father is a narc as I'm still wrestling with that one about my Mum, but am sure some others on here will be able to answer. I do know however that the treatment you describe from both your parents is just plain wrong and inexcusable, you sound like you're on the right path to be an incredibly sorted person and I send you my very best wishes that life is great for you from now on.

Oh thedrugsdontwork your father sounds very abusive. You poor thing. I remember having therapy as similar to you my father 'went off' me around the time I turned 9 or 10 and she said very matter-of-factly yes this happens sometimes with daddy's girls because the relationship becomes sexualised. I was but I think there was an element of that, he was never able to comfortably let go, and it sounds like your father was similar, calling you bee sting lips, giving you no privacy in the shower etc.

Your story is very similiar to mine but the strange thing is reading yours I can see without a doubt you did absolutely nothing wrong, you were a child and in a very dependent situation, whereas when I look at my own situation I feel guilty, selfish, all the words they use on me. It just goes to show how people take on all the horrible names they are called and start to believe them, when in fact they have done nothing wrong. I need to start believing that and so do you!

It's interesting that your mother also calls you selfish. My mother has always said I'm selfish, hard, amoral etc but weirdly when I look at her now she is describing herself. She is selfish and manipulative to a breathtaking degree, it is as if there is something missing, or as if she never got past a childlike stage. Like your mother mine will also spend a huge amount of money on herself, clothes etc, but only buy the meanest cheapest things for her kids. She recently bought my DS a very cheap polyester duvet and a really ugly cover. She's wealthy, too, though you'd never know it. I took them back and got a refund , but for herself she'll spend hundreds on a t-shirt, for example.

I am starting to think it will be easier to see much less of them. There is no reasoning with her, no changing her. I don't get any back up from my old family - one sister is the golden child and won't listen to any criticism, one is on anti-depressants that are very effective, so simply doesn't get upset by her anymore, and my father just goes along with her for the sake of an easy life, he would never ever take my side.

I know they will think I am being spiteful as they won't see my DS, but it's tough. She was so overbearing when I had him, I really don't want her anywhere near me when I am in that vulnerable state after giving birth, so it's almost as if I am fighting with them now to get some distance and privacy for the birth. It feels sad but good as well, I know it's what I want.

Butterfly swan good luck to you with NC. Tell us how it goes, I am contemplating it myself, I know exactly what you mean about how your life is less disrupted without your parents. My dad is OK and can behave normally these days, but my mother is just so unhinged and getting worse as she ages, she needs constant attention and validation and you cannot ever have a normal conversation with her, it's always me me me, anything you say she has to top with a better story about herself, she boasts constantly, tells the same stories again and again, and constantly compares my DS to the golden child's children (who if you ask me really haven't benefited at all from being treated like the second coming of christ). All of that would probably be OK except she has times that are totally unpredictable when she will be icy cold, sulky, distant, rude and seem incredibly furious but won't say a word, and I simply cannot bear her when she's like that (it will also be at the worst times, eg when I'm meeting them for my birthday dinner). Her moods always ruled our house growing up, sometimes she would also become violent, and I won't have it affecting me anymore.

anyway enough from me also. sending you all normality and enjoyable days, with no nutty family-of-origin behaviour!

TheDrugsDontWork

Your parents actually sound very similar to each other in that they're both abusive and not above using power and control methods to get what they want. I would think your mother is definitely narcissistic in terms of personality and your father is a bullying drunkard.

God only knows what their own childhoods were like, pound to a penny that featured abuse throughout as well. It is NOT repeat NOT your fault they are this way.

I would keep looking for an English speaking therapist where you live.

BTW I'd cancel the flower order for her birthday and keep the flowers for yourself instead. They do not deserve you at all in their lives.

Thedrugsdontwork

How "benevolent" of her not in allowing you to choose somewhere you've always wanted to go to. Do not let her spoil your choice.

Use the holiday as a line in the sand; do not let her upset you by potentially spoiling somewhere that you've always wanted to visit to boot. You can go off and do your own thing of a day and perhaps only meet up in the evening if she starts on you. Have clear and set boundaries and stick to them to the letter. Such women are masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again". Hence be very careful.

Not at all surprised to read that your Dad's childhood was abusive, of course it did him harm. He is stupid for stating otherwise but denial is a powerful force after all. As for your mother, one or both of her parents likely made her the centre of their universe.

Hi Oscalito, I plan to keep reading and will post if NC triggers my Mum off as I suspect it will when she realises what's going on. I may need support from people who understand. Something you said to TheDrugsDon'tWork gave me a lightbulb moment (thank you, I've had a lot when reading here!) to help me understand my father, I was a Daddy's girl when I was little & now have an explanation for why that all changed when I was older, I've puzzled over that one.

TheDrugsDontWork you've had great advice from Oscalito & Attila here, I hope it helps you deal with everything, I'm in awe that you've realised at a much younger age than I was that 'normal' family life was not what I experienced, I struggled for years being made to feel like I was the problem & am so pleased I've realised now, particularly so I don't pass it on to my wonderful children, think of all those years ahead of you you have to be happy!
Just a thought but you DO have a choice about whether to go away with your mother (even if you make a last minute excuse about being ill) you don't HAVE to go. If you do go keep those boundaries firmly in place, I hope you have a lovely birthday.

Im having a quiet read of all this whilst avoiding dm who's staying this weekend. Taking lots of deep breaths and smiling and nodding a lot. God that woman lives in a parallel universe.

Everything that comes out of her mouth makes her out to be a good guy either yours truly the baddy in it all. Nothing really malicious but enough to keep me on shells. Eg "you didn't reply to my ansa msg" (that's because you didn't leave one dm), or on seeing some chocs that dmil had bought dc " id buy you chocolate but mummy told me not too" (bollox scuse language)

Seems petty but is so wearing.....ah well best go back and find out what else I've done wrong.