"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

bisley DO NOT respond. She is following the narc script to a t.. How dare you ignore her after all she has tone for you? Nevermind she is prepared to forgive your thoughtlessness yada yada yada........

I would keep the email though so if ever you feel a nc wobble coming on you have a solid reminder of what you've escaped from.

I agree with others when they say that you shouldn't bother replying. She will never understand/ care about your position. I recently went NC with my mum and sent her a letter saying why. She responded with a letter that showed no understanding of the situation and was more focused on manipulating me/ showing HER veresion of the truth. I sm glad that your life is happier without her in it - keep it that way

I feel really angry and upset tonight! Now I'm the bad guy.

Can I say I feel hatred towards my mum at the moment maybe I'm the one that's losing it. As she said tonight " your not well bedtime" " your thinking isn't normal "

TheDrugs: welcome, if that's the right thing to say. To pursue a sport professionally takes an awful lot of dedication, determination and belief. All of these things you will need in bagfuls to help you through all this. But imagine, when you have resolved this situation to a point where you're more in control, you'll have all that gumption and more to throw back into your sport!

Keep talking, have you tried looking for a therapist? It'd really helps.

Bedtime what's up chuck? What's happened? Wanna talk about it?

thats a horrible thing to say to you bedtime, just because she feels threatened. Who says that shit! Jeeeez

I'm genuinely pleased to hear that you have found such strength from this thread, in the validation of the emptiness and abuse you have had to grow up with hun. You are so young to have already gone through the grieving of the loss of them and now maintaining so well low NC to get what YOU need from this awful situation. I am also amazed at how well you clearly separate out the money from the emotional, as one musn't ever muddy the other.

You have been so brave to let this all out. Let out whatever you want, whatever you feel is helpful to write.

I am really sorry to learn of your emptiness, but you are evidently one strong lass with a huge determination to succeed, not because of, but in spite of, your parenting experience.

take your time... writing all this out, whilst being very cathartic to help you process, also brings a lot up for you too emotionally in reviewing it... there's no rush with this...

Well done for your amazing focus on your sport, keep at it.. xxxx

ooops... forgot to namecheck that - TheDrugs

btw.. the money thing is incredibly common too, it was harder for me to let go because of financial dependence too, it felt like guilt money to me and I had to stop taking it, but looking back I wish I'd thought like you, that they owe me and at least they can do something to help! as long as you are not being emotionally blackmailed over it! take care xx

Sorry I haven't come back till now but sadly I've spent my night arguing with my mother in between this crying and feeling angry and sad. I have got drawn into things with her again and I've had enough. I have put up with a lot. I find it so hard to think of losing my parents. It makes me feel so sick and uneasy. I'm not strong enough to deal with this. I don't want to be alone. I'm scared. I don't want to have no family. I Can't erase the thought of my mum giving birth to me as a tiny baby. In my mind the image and thoughts are of such a special bond that cannot be broken, sadly it's fallen short of that from my mum but that's what I want a bond like that. What have I done not to have that? I am punishing myself.

If I don't see/ speak to her then that's my young sister gone. I mean shes funny with me all the time anyway. She shows no Care or love to me. Ruthless in ways. Im sad about that

the argument was about usual things She's basically telling me off for not seeing her, making me feel bad , calling me awful using really dramatic language to say how wretched I have been. Also she has had 4 medical emergencies in the last two weeks but then she has form for exaggerating everything. Generally it's just a cold or noting at all. Tonight she rings to tell me the doctor said he can't find what's wrong with her so she has to have other tests and a full blood count as she says. She's made it sound really serious then she goes on to say " I've told you bedtime life is short" on one of her texts it is very long basically about how it's awful I don't see her and that " she will be dead soon" she says really strong things like this.
My mother exaggerates so much about her health I never know when she is telling the truth and would feel bad if she ever had anything serious but then how am I supposed to know what's true or not anymore when it comes to her. This is the whole problem she lies a lot so I find it hard to be sympathetic like she wants me to be.

I tried to open up to her. I don't normally as she has form for using my weaknesses against me. I tried to say why I'm hurt and about the past but also about the present but she just wouldn't listen, she kept changing the subject or making it about her. Eg she changed the subject to criticising me about spending to much time with my husband. I don't see how that has anything to do with talking About why I'm hurt. I end up getting annoyed with her as I feel she's dismissing what I say so my voice becomes more stern then she says " I can't talk to you when you speak like this bedtime, it's not a way to communicate" she doesn't ever see that I might sound angry or stern because I'm hurt and actually cut me some slack and just listen to me. She wants me to tell her why I don't see her much and had a big rant at me for this so then I'm trying to explain how I feel then she goes and does the things I've said above, then says " I'm not listening to this I'm going now" making out like I'm silly.

She knows I'm upset when she hung up. Then sent me silly face messages to my mobile and passing off things. I feel as though she thinks my pain is one big joke. She says I'm being silly and makes out I'm not thinking normally and I'm not well. I suffer from bad anxiety she know this, it's very hard. So when she says I'm not well it plays on this as I already feel like life is hard to cope with.

I feel such intense anger towards her sometimes that I think well is she right am I not well, I think it's not normal for me to feel such anger. I question myself. Am I overreacting. All I want is for her to listen to me! I think that's why I get so angry. Listen to my feelings and acknowledge that I am hurt .

She works with offenders then compares me to them and says she's a model citizen and that in basically must be me thats bonkers to think of her in a bad way and then in other messages says " I know your scared" I mean scared. What is that all about scared of what?
It's as though she wants me to be scared. I also feel she goads me a lot.

I feel I got dragged into her crap again. I just get dragged back in then she grinds me down. That's what it feels like anyway.

The drugs don't work - you sound lovely. I get what you mean about having the " material things" but I felt like you emotionally they did not care much. I always felt desperately lonely as a child. I still get that now. From being about 8 i have suffered with anxiety and had low self worth and confidence. I get scared of ending up alone do you? I think this is what keeps me going back and putting up with things.
Also just referring back to the "material things". With this in mind I felt like my parents wanted to keep up with everyone ( the jonses) so a lot of this was motivated by competitiveness. Do you feel that was the same?
So yes they throw back at me that I'm a spoilt brat. ( because they fed and clothed me) and I get the who do you think you are line.
Even though over the years she has said we were all mistakes and also makes us feel bad for being born because " she had to give up her freedom and life for us" if it wasn't for her having babies so young she says she would never have had an affair when I was 16. That's because she didn't live her youth Apparantley. I mean what a thing to ever tell us. She also says the reason her brother doesn't see her is because of me.
That's because when I was 14 I wrote a letter to her real dad who shed never met asking if he would meet up with her. I did this for her because my mother constantly cried to me about her dad. So I thought I was doing something nice. She then says that's the reason her brother doesn't speak to her because I wrote a letter to her real dad. Yes I was a bit unfriendly in it too because of what mum told me but I was only 14 and naive and believed the things she said which now looking back were probably exaggerated.
Also that comes to my next point that she always told us things from being young children that really wernt for kids to know . Adult things.

I was hit with the slipper as a young child. Probably from about 7 and slapped etc. mum used to do it and dad. Sometimes she would get him to do it. I find that hard now thinking how could you hit a child with a slipper. I had OCD from 8 and anxiety. I didn't like my life a lot. I wonder how much this is from my home life or is it normal for perhaps teenagers to not be happy

Thanks hissy, fairy fe and drugs don't work. Your all great.

bedtime there is nothing USUAL about those arguments.

I think your mother is either a Narc or has an untreated personality disorder.

I'm no expert, but she sounds just like the ex of a friend of mine. Even down to the career choice!

You can't win, don't even try to win the game.

You have no choice but to distance yourself.

She rants? You hang up. Every. Single. Time.

It's a bit PA, but it gives you the sense of control back.

Stop making yourself available for her to abuse you, love.

You're not alone, you have your H. Make HIS family your own, if they are kind.

Bedtime, I agree with Hissy, these arguements are not normal, and it isn't you! Your mum definately sounds like a narc - she sounds very similar to my mum. I can also identify with the anger as I used to feel the same rage over my mum. I think it is the combination of disrespect and not being able to have your views listened to, and being made to feel that you are the one that has been crazy! It is an expression of the sheer frustration you have been feeling.
I also think that Hissys idea of hanging up when she rants will help you take some control back. Take are and keep posting

I think everything you suffer Bedtime (and *Thedrugs) is as a direct result of being rejected out of hand by her, being continually put down, and blamed.. Its soooo important that you see that, and hold onto it hun.

Not only that, but that now your life is your own, and you no longer have to accept any of that complete B/S, because thats all it is, and you know you can see it as that. Its just the wretched self-doubts and anxieties creeping in (again the results of everything you've been through).

It would make you one strange and abnormal person if you took all of this and weren't affected by it, to at least the degree you say you are!

Be kind to yourself now hun, reprogramme the stuff 'she says' in your head, to being absolutely worthy, and instead of allowing her to say 'you're a mistake' you can replace that one straight away with 'I'm the best thing that ever happened to you, and you screwed it up', 'I was your opportunity to make something of your life, and you screwed it up' 'us babies were the most precious things you ever had, and you screwed it up'

... because that, lovelies, is actually the truth, live each day by it, going to bed each night, knowing it. You were and are gorgeous marvellous and wonderful babies and adults, but she has iron clad dark glasses welded to her face, with mirrors inside, so will only ever see herself. This is not your fault, and she has no right to take that out on you.

Look to yourself now to see the amazing things inside you. Do things for yourself each day. Truly know the lovely things that you are inside, affirm to yourself all the great things you have done for yourself and others. Know these things to be true, and work hard against her to dispel the self-doubt that she tries to plant - shields up (as Sheldon would say). warm wishes for your journeys Fi x

Thanks all for the replies. I haven't hardly slept a wink. I think that's the worst I doubt myself all the time is it me. Am I taking things too seriously . Am I too sensitive. Even now I'm thinking the bit about when i said we were taking her youth away I think was I over dramatic. I mean she hasn't said sentiments like this for a long time and it wasn't direct , it was more subtle tones, but that's what I took from it.

She tells me all the time my thinkings not right. I feel like I'm going crazy sometimes. I mean I do get defensive a lot even with other people as I never know what they are going to say to me or wether what people say is a dig like mum does. When I call her up on something that I thought was a dig she says things like don't be silly. I would never hurt you. Then I question myself thinking maybe I've got it wrong.

I mean she said to me a few weeks ago " oh you'll be a lady of leisure soon" in my mind I thought that was a dig but am I wrong? That's the thing questioning wether things are or aren't a dig. She said oh don't be daft all women my age of 50 and over say things like this. But the context seemed to not fit, she's not really a joker type.

She sounds very strange, bedtime. Possibly she is simply unable to read your signals, that you are upset, unable to be a caring and sympathetic person. It's just beyond her. Look after yourself - go to bed and rest, turn off the phone so she can't text you (or ask her not to call anymore), take a break. She'll get out of your head again eventually, but it is overwhelming when they push your buttons and you just have to try and stay calm in the face of someone who is behaving very badly. Even harder when it's your own mother.

My mother and the golden child sister have been exhausting this week, as they always are around anything involving birth or death. My cousin is dead and they seem to be almost revelling in all the drama. The latest is my sister ringing me yesterday and telling me that my mother is in charge of all food so I have to run my ideas for things to bring to the wake past her, and secondly that because it's her daughter's birthday on the day of the funeral she is going to bring a birthday cake to the wake and everyone will sing happy birthday. Apparently my cousin 'would have loved it'. I think it's fucking bonkers, but what do I know?

Ps bedtime my mother never said we took her youth away, but she did used to say 'If this all gets too much and I have to choose between my children and my husband I will choose my husband.'

I mean, what is that supposed to mean, exactly?

Oh dear god Oscelito! The birthday cake?

I'd be making a quiet call to the cousin's family yo get them to veto that one, there and then.

It HAS to be all about them huh? Shocking!

A birthday cake at a wake, talk about self indulgent!!!

Apparently my cousin's sister (my other cousin) said it was OK and my cousin (the one whose wake it is) would be happy. My sister can be slightly overbearing though and obviously my cousin is devastated having just lost her sister and probably not thinking too clearly.

But yes, I thought I would mention it here as other Stately Homers may well find bleak comfort in the nuttiness of my family.