"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I'm thinking of going NC with my toxic mother, and by extension my enabling father and golden child sister.

It's been building for a while, since I moved close to her again after years overseas.

My cousin has been very ill. I was getting to know her when I first came back and always really cared for her. Then she became ill and my mother, who never saw her when she was well, was suddenly up at the hospital constantly. She has a ghoulish side and seems to enjoy the drama of intensive care wards, hospitals etc, it's something that's been very apparent over the years with her.

Anyway my cousin has been getting steadily worse and yesterday I woke up to a text saying 'I"m at the hospital, xxxxx has died. Will speak soon.'

I just can't believe she didn't even bother to call. Like I was not important, just someone who needed to be told for practical reasons, like I never gave a shit about my cousin. I wasn't at the deathbed (my mother went home, but then went back to the hospital when my cousin had died, god knows why, you think she'd give the family some space, they aren't particularly close) and I wasn't at the hospital all the time, but I still think I deserved more than a text message.

I am so sad for my cousin. She was a wonderful mother to a beautiful boy and she won't get to see him grow up now, nor will he have her love anymore.

I just don't think I'll be able to forgive my mum this time. She's always been icy cold and totally insensitive but this has really thrown me.

How do you do it??

Oscalito, no immediate advice. Just didn't want to read and run. So sorry for your loss. Please give yourself the time and space to grieve without giving headspace to your Dm.

Oscalito. I'm so sorry.

I began NC by phoning my Mum and explaining why. I was wracked with guilt at the time. I asked for space but she didn't respect my request and within a fortnight pretended I'd never had that conversation with her. I needed space from my Dad more than anything but her a little too.

It's evolved over time and I've continually had to reinforce boundaries but you get there in the end and it's worth it.

Thanks Meery. It's so hard not to give headspace to my mother... a constant battle. I'm thinking with NC it might be easier.

Don'tstep yes I was thinking of telling my dad, rather than her. I'm due a baby soon and she behaved so badly last time, I don't want her anywhere near me when I have a newborn. Why is it worth it? It just seems easier to suffer them than go through the drama of NC, but she's becoming worse as I challenge/standup to her and it can't really go on like this, it affects my mood too much and I need to be happy for my family (and myself of course).

I hope you are ok Hissy?

Hi Oscilato Im sorry to hear your pain with your mum (in title only it seems )

Some ppl are insensitive! but when its your mum, and the icy cold, lack of empathy you speak clearly of... well sometimes NC does seem the only way.

Important with your impending precious occasion that you choose the best thing, even temporarily to get you the special closeness during this time, without the trampling all over your boundaries. xx

Thanks FairyFi

Am I right in thinking it's weird to send someone a text about a family death? At 2am? Instead of a gentle phone call in the morning. It was just so cold and abrupt.

But I don't know if I'm being oversensitive or she's being insensitive (story of my life....).

being distrusting of our own flags that whats happening is wrong and feels bad is very common I think. If someone makes you feel good, they are good... if they make you feel bad, they are bad?

I don't think I could call someone at that time in the night with that sort of information, that would be more about me needing attention than letting the person know because they needed to know, as noone NEEDS to know by being woken up by a text!

I guess the only circumstances would be if you were on alert that someone was getting close to the end and you wanted to know so that you could be there at the end..

... but you are right, because it isn't this 'one-off' incident that feels so bad is it? Its the context of her, that she's always being like this. If you had a lovely supportive close (but normal with the ups and downs) relationship, ths would be considered very insensitive but also out of character, and you would wonder about her 'state' in it all... Whereas its just another example of how she is?

Yes. You articulate it really well, thanks for taking the time to reply. You're right, about trusting your flags. It's often a gut feeling about people/behaviour rather than anything you can pinpoint, isn't it?

I suppose if she'd called me earlier on - they knew she was fading that evening - then at least I would have known and been prepared. I wouldn't have gone up as I know there were a lot of people there and I am a 'remember them as they were' person.

It was just so awful to get a text out of the blue, with no warning that the end was even close, saying she had died. She could have just called me in the morning, it was as if she was saying, you won't care, but here's the information just so you know.

Anyway I'm just going to leave it for now and not say anything, it's such a sad time and my poor cousin isn't even here to hug her son, so I am going to hug mine and remember our lovely conversations instead.

oscalito it's the drama they get off on I think. Like they have the inside track on something. I've seen it before and it's a hideous thing.

Normal people would just call in the morning, not be all Breaking News about it. Dare I even ask how long she waited after the death? Sorry, I know that's a hideous question, but one that occurred to me and already gives me a sense of discomfort.

FairyFi, i'm ok, thanks for asking. Wrestling with the whole fucked up family/life thing atm.

I wish I knew more normal people, cos atm I feel outnumbered. I'm not like them, I can't believe how they live, behave,and treat me tbh, it's a different set of rules.

If your first child told you that her sister had dragged up something from a very dark period of her life, and made damned sure with obvious glee, that she knew she'd been deliberately ignored, when all that was needed was a text to say nothing in particular, a hand hold. If that hurt your DD so badly that she had to cut her out of her life, wouldn't you ask DD2 wtf she had done and why?

No. Apparently not. You'd ignore it all, repeatedly expect DD1 to sweep it all away, for the family's sake, and effectively just STFU about it.

My sister gets invited to this that and the other, and then, would I like to attend? Er no thanks.

Would you like to come to a party for someone who shrieks at you, swears at you and your child when he feels like he can, and has never had any manners towards me since? Just because you, DM married him? Erm, again, no.

So i'm the one on the outside, have nobody in my life, and I know it's the right thing to do, but OMG it feels so shit, so lonely. I'm in a sodding village, no friends within miles, so not even sodding playdates. I feel like I fucked it all up, and my DS is in this shit with me.

oh Hissy it completely sounds so shit and fucked up, absolutely... and a very lonely place to be ... on the outside of it. Its such a rough ride.

I guess its important to know that you have realised it is they who are the fuck ups, right? You know that, you speak that clearly and you are better on the outside of it, and if they maintain an expectation that you would hang around to be shouted at (with your DC)! Yes, I agree, they should be sadly mistaken.

The next bit is rebuilding, starting small, and growing the new circle of people around you, that circle of ppl right now might be here, where you get others that understand the shit that goes around! and sometimes thats works as being all you need whilst things settle inside, before making some small steps out there, in your village, with any kind of kids activity for instance.

Being alone, doesn't always mean being lonely, its growing into your space and moving away from the things you know and believe to be wrong. Its so isolating, but the dysfunctional family dynamic desperately need their support too right? (don't think by saying this I'm condoning it though, as in, they should have support, cos they absolutely shouldn't) but this is the only thing that they can hang onto and if they side with you, doesn't it mean somehow accepting that its dysfunctional and therefore they are wrong too? Each person has to make their own progress towards it or not.... I know each person in my er what I call er 'family' all deal with it differently.

hun xxx

Please hang onto the fact that you would still be enjoying the greater family circle if they hadn't been so abusive towards you, so absolutely NO, you didn't fuck it up, you got you and your DS out, because you want your lives to be different to that, better, far better.

... keep posting and drawing strength, and making some fun for you and your DS, as all this is now in your control and power to make your lives better, and you will... take care xxx

I just wish, somehow that it hadn't come to this. I wish I was still ignorant to it all.

I've agonised for hours of therapy sessions, days, months and pretty much a year now, and I just wish I could find some way of it not having happened.

Does that make sense?

My ex was abusive, when he left the whole can of neglectful worms got opened.

Makes me feel as monumentally stupid as I did the day he left sometimes.

Feeling sorry for myself today. Will hope to snap back out of it at some point.

Thanks fi!

Hissy she wouldn't have waited long. TBH I don't even know why she was there. She went back to the hospital in the early hours after my cousin had died. I can't understand that - she was dead. But it's my mother to a T.

God your family sounds like mine, especially the convenient assumption that bad behaviour just gets quietly ignored. How old is your DS? I have a feeling that once they start school it all gets easier as the pressure to provide social activities, playdates etc eases off a bit. I am hoping anyway. The early years are lonely at times, I find.

It's strange how being shouted at in front of your child can be a deal breaker. It must be a shock to the abuser, to suddenly realise they've gone too far. You've done the right thing.

These stories are shocking, as ever I always think I can no longer be surprised by bad parental behaviour. Trust me when I say I'm from a happy, functioning birth family and I'm genuinely aghast for you - I know that people like me don't generally understand (it's my ILs wot have done it!) but if they heard the truth you would have a lot more support.

Oscalito I'm so sorry for your loss. Is there something you can do privately, non-dramatically, to mark your cousin and your bond? It might help to have that moment that your mother cannot intrude on.

Good idea forget me nots. I am having a quiet few days at home being with my DS. She was so sick and I am glad she's not suffering anymore. My mother did ring today wanting to add me to the family death notice, I said we were going to do our own notice, but she's added me to hers anyway. Typical of her to simply ignore what I want, especially when it's a boundary around my independent life away from her control. But yes I am going to take it quietly for a while and not see them at all.

thanks for your support. x

no snapping out required hun... ((hugs)) for the roller-coaster big dip right now, be kind to yourself ... I'm being battered by teens at the mo so have to run! but wanted to say hang on in there, stay with it, sending you lots of warmth and strengths and thinking of you... xxx

Thinking of you for your loss Oscalito.. a way to mark it for yourself sounds lovely xxx

Funny oscelito, I moved back near mother after years abroad too!

I'm NC with my sister, obviously, and my dad too. He set the tone with criticism, DM never challenged any of his shit. Only she married an even lesser man, who thinks he can talk to me like crap.

Again, she let's him. One minute he's supportive of me, the next he's chipping in that there are 2 sides.

At times I want to confront the sister, write and tell her what for and why, but I know it'll only be twisted out of all recognition to the truth. Won't change anything either.

I 'met' an OP on here once, she was me but a few years back, and a little less trapped. I didn't know her, owed her nothing, and in fact having her reminders of what my life had been like, thousands of miles from home, abused and trapped indoors for weeks on end. I cried and cried. For us both.

I kept emailing her, every day until she came home.

All this before I was told that Sis had deliberately ignored my texts for virtual company. I could have died thinking she was busy, but it wasn't enough of a feed for her. She had to see me when she brought me up to speed.

I can't ever forgive that level of cruelty. I won't have that near me or my DS. We've had our fill of crap humans.

Is it just me that struggles to get why if i'm not the one in the wrong, how come i'm outnumbered? How come i'm alone.

I thought i'd found someone to share my life, with similar parents, but after a year he said he saw no future, and so I had to end it. I get that we were together 'for a reason' but for a moment there I thought I had it all.

I know what'll come next will be better, but my god i'm having to dig deep for that faith atm.

Oscalito, huge hugs for you, this stuff, the notice now on top must be hard. Do your own notice. Bigger than hers too! ;-)

Hello everyone, I'm new to these threads. I read a few of the early ones but got a bit daunted by the size of them, and some of the stories made mine pale into comparison.

However, after 5 months of NC with my parents, I have had my very own 'stately homes' moment and I could do with splurging on here a bit, if that's ok.

My mum hasn't attempted much in the way of contact, a few bulk emails to me and my sisters pretending nothing has happened, not addressing me or making any mention of it, a few short individual emails doing things like suggesting if I couldn't bear to see them then maybe DH could take my children to see them instead (as if that's going to happen!)

The period of NC began after I tried to explain some of the things she does and says that upset me, and she batted each one away with various excuses (you're imagining it, I didn't mean it like that, you're over-sensitive, you only remember the bad things...) and I realised she would never want to listen to how I felt.

I've ignored all her emails, so she has finally decided to have her say. She sent an email yesterday that was one section detailing how awful she has felt, and one section giving the results of the 'introspection' I had 'forced on' her.

The results of the introspection is a list of all the ways she was a wonderful mother and all the ways I was a disappointment as a daughter (under the guise of 'I tried to understand when you did xyz...').

My favourite bits were when she explained how after weeks of 'beating herself up over my accusations and behaviour' she was comforted by her friends telling her she was not a mother from hell, and the sign off, where she claims they still love me, but are finding it very hard to like me at the moment.

What baffles me is that she seems to think this email is a step towards resolution (she says 'I do not want to accept the situation as unresolvable) but if you were in a situation where someone had removed themselves from you but you wanted to see them again, wouldn't you, you know, be nice to them?? I know that's a ridiculous question, she wouldn't ever see it like that. As far as she's concerned, I'm punishing her for crimes she didn't commit. She called it a 'stand off' like we're both in period of high tension, waiting for the other to break first. She doesn't realise I'm not contacting her because I simply don't want to see her. I'm happier without her, and getting on with a less stressful and calmer and more stable life.

I'm torn on how to respond to her. I know there's no point in addressing what she says in her email (most of it is irrelevant to what I said before NC), but she's so clearly got the wrong end of the stick it feels like a cruelty to not let her know what my situation is.

I could continue to ignore, but she will probably ramp it up, now that she's broken the 'stand off'. It'd be great if I could give her a quick one liner that would convince her there's no point in railing at me and she should probably just leave me alone.

Not sure how to wrap up this mammoth post, so will just leave it there I think.

I think you said it, this: I'm not contacting her because I simply don't want to see her. I'm happier without her, and getting on with a less stressful and calmer and more stable life.

no stand-off, no more battles, its over!

sorry to post and run.. you are doing everything you need, keep going xxx

What Fairyfi wrote.

Re this part of your comment:-
"I'm torn on how to respond to her. I know there's no point in addressing what she says in her email (most of it is irrelevant to what I said before NC), but she's so clearly got the wrong end of the stick it feels like a cruelty to not let her know what my situation is".

You feel like that because you are at heart kind and reasonable. Your mother however is not and never has been. It would not be like that at all and I would not respond at all. Your mother perhaps knows she has done many wrongs but does not give a toss about you and the damage she has done to you. She like all toxic people never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions. She is too emotionally damaged and self absorbed in her own self to realise any differently and would not get it in any case. Do not respond at all. Any e-mails she sends you should go automatically to spam.

Thanks FairyFi and Attila. I know I need to block her emails now. I'd been kind of waiting for this one though, just to see what she had to say. But it's entirely as I expected, so I guess it's time to set it up.

You say it's a cruelty not to let her know your position. She already knows your position all too well - she just doesn't care about it, she only cares about her position. If you respond, she'll just come back with some other attempt to manipulate your feelings. Stick with the NC Bisley, it sounds to me like you need peace from her, so block her and enjoy that peace.

It sounds like she's trying to pull you back into line, saying 'stop this drama, look at all the things you've done to me, you're lucky I'm prepared to make this effort, especially as my friends tell me how fabulous I am'.

it's very manipulative. If you are happier without her and your life is calmer then I see no reason to change things. Once she's back in your life you may find yourself being punished for daring to challenge her and you'll be back to square one.

it's hard but well done for being brave enough to go NC.

to Atilla you have said your piece, but she will continue to see it the way she wants to see it, you don't have to keep trying to make her see it your way, if she won't? So you can let go, but I totally get what you mean in your want to do that.