"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Hello. I've been reading here for almost a year, so lovely not to feel so.alone and thought that your stories, counselling and supportive DH all helped me be stronger.

I recently wrote to my parents to explain how much their drinking drinking and attendant physical and verbal abuse had impacted my life and some of the danger i had been in as a result. i asked them never to offer my DCs alcohol and to stop drinking if they were looking after them.

They've shared the letter with my db who is furious with me and claims I'm making it up, now my DM gets to show me sympathy that he has overreacted, it's all noise and bullshit I know and all to avoid the elephant in the drawing room but this weekend i feel like I've gone mad, doubting my memories, feeling like an ungrateful bitch.

I am mildly bipolar and I feel a real depression coming on. I feel weighed down with regret and sadness at all the years wasted being afraid and hiding the shame and self loathing. I have every appearance of success and achievement yet I want anyone else's reality but my own. It's too much to carry and I feel so so alone.

Thank you for reading, I'm not sure how to stop the train.

Marion reading your post has made me feel very angry on your behalf. I'm so sorry.

I think going no contact makes things easier but not everyone feels it's right for them.

I'd enforce firm boundaries and do not allow your brother to shout at you at all. Close the door on him. Hang up the phone. Simply say you won't be spoken to like that.

Try and step out of the drama triangle your parents have initiated. Refuse to be part of it.

Do you have a counsellor or close friend to support you at this difficult time?

Marion it's exactly what they always do. Deny anything happened & say you're making it up. If they had ever actually accepted their behaviour was wrong they wouldn't have done it in the first place. Accepting that they'll never change or for that matter apologise is a big step to you moving forward. Whether as a result you go NC like many of us is a big possibility. Don't give them any more power to hurt you.

Just another note for me to again not bother, this time regarding sil1& my neices. A whole month ago when i organised the get together with mil i had also organised a get together with sil to a activity centre so the kids could play. Sil asked what ages could go there, when i said 2-12, she complained that nc 14 & 15yo couldn't go, but tbh i didnt expect the elders to want to come as they are teens so said how about the local park. Never got an answer, so assumed we wouldn't be meeting-until today she is now hassling dh over said meeting. Ffs why wait a whole month to say your bovvverd. I said to dh i cba as if she was intent on seeing it through she would have got back to me a month ago when i asked. Dh now isn't happy and won't show me the texts she has sent. So now i have moody dh to contend with over the half term-lovely thanks sil.
I swear that bitch knows how to cause trouble.

Should have stayed nc

Thank you both dontstep and midwife for your swift and kind replies. You have made me feel so much better knowing that I'm not alone and that others are facing the same things with such wisdom and fortitude.

I read an interesting remark (here?) about holding onto the anger - do I not want to let go because it means they've got away with it? Because it defines me?

I want to get to a quiet place where I can be at peace. For those who've done so, is NC the way forward?

It seems at once terrifying, ungrateful and incredibly attractive.

The mechanics could be challenging as we all work for a family business and live in the same area.

But then I read all the hurt and complicated postings and resolve to remove myself.

Thank you for your kindness, this is a remarkable series if threads and has helped me more than I can say. You are all brave and generous people.

it seems NarcM cannot accept anyone in the family coming to see me. Her brother now refuses to come to the UK to see anyone as a result of it all .... so now I discover why I had no family once I NC with her.

So Fairy, would it be usual for Narc family to enlist/recruit others to stick up for them?

Is your mother seeking sympathy from this family member or does he feel the situation is unjust and you need to be punished?

Hope I've understood correctly.

Is the anything you can/want to do about preventing your case or is that a waste of time?

I'm facing similar family polarisation and its really knocked me sideways.

Oh I think I misunderstood, sorry. He doesn't want anything to do with his UK family over this?

Forgive me I'm not thinking straight at the moment!

I personally try to let go of anger Marion as it affects me in every part of my life. But NC was right for me. Very odd seeing my Dad briefly last week for the first time in over a year. I have no plans to see him again though, it was just circumstances.

Fairy your uncle makes his own decisions, for his own reasons.

If he's not big enough to see his family, for whatever reason, it's his decision, and shrieks volumes about HIM, no-one else.

he's told me he could jump on a plane tomorrow, anytime, but for all the hysterics it would cause, so yeah, he doesn't bother any more.... it caused a huge row last time DA & DU snuck out to secret meeting with me... he's had years of being 'chaperoned' around not being free to do anything he wanted, and funnily enough, his DM was the same with him/others too when they visited.

... and hissy, he is the only member of family that is asking after us and doing things for us. Bully father is dying and they don't want to upset 'her' as she's struggling with this right now, which I can understand.

Its VERY common to bow to their will in this way due to the 'upset' and drama it will cause 'her'

He left all this behind years ago, when we were young. ... He's said that as bad as his life was, he wouldn't want to have been me

I have no anger at them, I am sad, but only a little about the way this went.

so Marion NC was the way forward for me, and has been the only way forward, I went through grieving, and there was a lot of anger in that too, especially at the times when I felt I 'needed' the support I 'deserved' and was horribly resentful, etc.... but going through all that years ago cleanses the soul. I know that I love them, but know that they will always try to punish (funnily enough I have a FW ex who cannot let go either! and continually wants to punish) and I can't change that and cannot find a way to be around them, just not strong enough to continually take that kind of toxicity. What a waste and sad loss, but I still look back and know I did the right thing (if thats any help?) I hope that you find the best way for you in your FOG right now.

yeah pretty much Marion, he does speak to DD often about the situation with the FW ex and talk her through coping with a FW like him as a father, and is very supportive to us (out of all the family), but has revealed the extent to which it was impossible to make visits. Just recently another family member was over and they, despite wanting to come, couldn't!! Said to her 'I want to visit Fi' she told her very clearly what a huge problem that would be (guilt tripping over huge emotional distress for NarcM if that were to happen).

Well Fairy, given all that, I think he's made the decision for himself, that the stress is not worth it. And by the sounds of it, it's understandable. Could you go and see HIM?

I meant for you NOT to blame yourself, as I know the default is for us to do that.

One day, you'll be free of her shadow. It's such a waste of a family isn't it? To allow one person to poison the lives of so many.

I hope there IS a hell sometimes, cos in some cases, it'd have been really justified.

Please can anyone help me find a positive way to look at something my Dad said. I went NC 3 months ago. During our last conversations I pleaded with him to help me resolve our relationship by not being constantly vile about me and my DH to my face and even worse behind our backs (which he did even on the day of my mother's funeral in December).

He replied "Well Windingdown, if I have to measure my words and be nice to you all the time I might as well pay someone to do my garden and housework." That's all he thought of me isn't it? I was the woman who was there to do his chores and be treated like dirt. I try to be rational, but what a shockingly awful thing to say?. It really hurts me. Will it fade or is there an easier way to put this behind me? Thank you.

so far away is beyond my reach sadly. i was hoping I hadn't blamed myself in there, did I?

There is that massive 'core truth' that someone wisely spoke of many threads back that binds us to them. Huge emotional blackmail, like having a gun to your head, anyone going NC must feel that? and takes great strength to walk away, as it goes against 'nice' peoples nature to inflict pain, knowing the emotional fallout it will cause (or suicide attempts etc).

He's could be accused of being 'weak', but I don't expect anyone to do what I've done, and I won't hold it against him. If he stayed anywhere else she wouldn't probably have anything to do with him. its a big fuck up mess. He's taken the passive approach.

I dont' think I'd be beholden to someone else's emotional blackmail another time, but within families its a real hard one to fight.

Winding I don't think you were asking him to 'measure' his words atall, just not be vile anymore, and his responsibility to do what he will/won't about that, but sounds like he won't . Hurts do stop hurting when you let yourself feel it so you can move you. There's no easy side-stepping, face it, it was a dreadful thing to say, and I think loaded with everything thats gone before for you also? It will naturally shift from in front of you, to within you and then behind you... I'm sorry. If you wanted to be sure you could double-check that he'd rather say that to you than actually comply with your request and notice that he is hurting you in the way you told him he is? take care xx

I don't want to be free of her, she's my mother and I love her, I don't hate her, don't wish her any harm, I just know now that I can't be around her, it would cause her too much pain, and I won't get any pleasure from that. As that is actually the core truth, that it all causes them pain, for which they have to blame everyone else and absolutely refuse to take it back when acceptance of passed blame is refused!

when they cause us no more pain it is because we are truly ourselves again and cannot be rock by them any more, because our own belief in ourselves is strong enough to realise they cannot accept us, not the other way around. xxx

Yeah Hissy a hell, but it's her hell, I don't want to be the 'trigger' for that, but I'll no longer be somehow less important than her, I have tried and tried to help her, but cannot of course. I was nursing very ill baby and crying and still trying to help her; its important to know its her road to travel and being blunt with ppl can be the only way to make them realise, and not even then...

Yes Fairy, you are so right to say it was loaded with years of stuff that has gone before. I'd not thought before, but when he had it in his power to help me he just ignored the hurt he causes and heaped on more pain. How clearly you made me see that. Your words on the process of recovering have been a great help to me.

My mother has shown me time and time again that I do not matter to her, that my feelings are my own problems.

She has shown me that it's a different story with just about anyone and everyone in her life. they come first.

When someone in our life is mean, hurts us and works to make our lives sad, then we have a right to live free of that.

My mother thinks she loves me, but that is not love. I can't love someone who wishes me harm, or who watches while others perpetrate it.

Her loss. I will only mourn the fact that I never had a decent mother, and never will, the day she dies. I will feel freer, as I will not have my hopes that one day she will see how things ought to be.

No-one has the right to be emotional terrorists in our lives.

They won't change until they know we mean business. When my mother moves house later this year, I will stop bothering with her. I'm not going to confront her, no point, she will do what she has already done, denial, minimisation and blame.

i think she is making a MASSIVE mistake, but you know what? HER look out. She's abandoned ME in the past, many times, sided against me and actively worked to make my terrible former life continue. I'm out.

I admire your tenacity though FairyFi. I really hope you get something out out of it, you certainly deserve to.

no... Hissy... noone has that right to emotional terrorism. I don't see my mother, not for more than a decade, will not see her.... I live that part of my life in peace, as she will continue to do everything she always has, but she won't like me, and thats fine, because I'm not the person I was then.. and she won't like this person that doesn't hang around, bother to argue, listen to the toxicity, and she will feel the pain of that. I know enough to realise that.

The toxicity they pour continually is awful and I'm sorry to hear yours Hissy... I'm glad you are doing what you need...

My tenacity to what? I'm not sure what you mean... xx