"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have no knowledge of PTSD fairyfi other than I have heard how awful it is - not sure if panic attacks are part of that package. I'm sure some will say escapism is a cop out but I found it rather calming and at the time it was all the I could do to remember to breathe and put one foot in front of the other... Hope the referral helps.

escapism is definitely good! especially when its good fun, an excellent antidote balanced with the facing too tho.. thanks

Strange you should say that tangerine although i'm the dil of toxic pil. Although i have a dd from a previous relationship, i only noticed pil toxicity upon being near the end of my pregnancy & birth of my 1st child by dh. The sheer obsession over wanting my unborn child to be a boy was the 1st glimpse into their behaviours, as the fixation of a boy keeping their surname was of upmost importance to them. Of course when baby came to be a girl, they were less than extactic but still wanted to take over re her homecoming.
Infact late pregnancy with my subsequent children was always clouded by their over presence and odd behaviour re desperatly wanting a grandboy, although they treat dh (their son) like absolute shit.
When me & sil both had dds, there was a constant ask of us getting pregnant again to produce a grandson, and after recieving scan pictures with the words girl underneath fil wasnt afraid to show his dissapointment, infact he through dd3 crib into the boot in a temper after a trip to the shop after the scan!

I am not telling them i'm pregnant this time round, dh & i are sworn to secrecy. Im rather plumptious anyway so hoping i can hide my bump, not that i plan on seeing them again as dh has been a grump since the reunion. I won't be repeating it.

last week I was quite ill. i needed help to get stuff done around the house. i employ a cleaner because my sisters are ever soo messy.

Our Parents have always been quite abusive and I've never been the favorite-in fact I've always been seen as the worst of them. Brother has always been the golden childeven through his drug addictions; setting a car on fire because he didn't like it anymore and wanted a 'newer' one. (Despite the car he burned only being 6 months old).

Because our parents are controlling, my two younger sisters moved in with me--with the understanding that I would pay for their UNI and they would pay me back once they started working. Only problem is, both also have toxic tendencies and over the weekend the Sister1 who is almost finished with exams decided to take my laptop from my lap and throw it on the floor, then rip my glasses off my face and throw them across the room. I'm 12 weeks pregnant with baby no.2. I just don't feel like this should happen to me in my house. She did these things because she thought I called her an 'asshole' because she said she wouldn't help clean the kitchen. I didn't in fact, call her an asshole.

Days before, our youngest sister caused a massive fight over not changing the television to a programme that could be watched by everyone. (DS who is 4 was in the room and was definitely not interested in 'yes to the dress').

Youngest sister is totally out of control, posing for x-rated pictures in the hopes of making close friends; unfortunately she was not happy with the idea of the pictures being widely viewed so now feels taken advantage of the photographer doesn't care.

I just want to die sometimes...I really like my life when it comes to everyone except my immediate family. I love my son, I even love my husband. I can't handle my sisters. They do help when they feel like it, but they don't feel like it often enough.

On the other hand, if they had been left at home, only one of the sisters would have been offered higher education and the other (youngest sister) would have been encouraged to find someone.

tangerinefeathers

they have no where else to go--which is why they are with me. If they lived at home our parents would financially control them. Being in my house helps...they've both decided to go to UNI and worked quite hard to get there so I have offered to help.

As far as working, the one who is finishing uni this week will start working and contributing and the youngest will contribute as soon as she starts working in the summer. They both do try to help out, but it's their attitudes I cannot stand.

When I have asked them to leave, they both get super violent and aggressive and tell me I have no right to kick them out unless I financially support their new homes. I just can't do that.

pumpkin - hope all is well with LO and I'm (genuinely) sorry to hear things have been going wrong with PILs already, know you meant only kindness by seeing them again.

But Queen, you know that you DO have a right to kick them out and NO obligation to support them, right?

You know that they are taking the piss with their behaviour. They are ruining what sounds like a happy and functioning family - you, your DH and DS.

Maybe I'm being overly harsh on them here but as much as I think you have been so lovely taking your sisters in - they are fundamentally not your responsibility. You need to lay it out for them. If they are violent you phone the police and you have them ejected. I feel so sorry for you hen you have met them with nothing but generosity but you owe this to your family (the three of you).

Thankyou forgetmenots, it's not so much it has gone wrong (haven't seem them since reunion), it's dh he seems off with me a tad-The same as he was last time ils were putting pressure on him. He has told me he hasn't had any contact from them, but unfortunetly he has form for lying about texts/phonecalls.

I do not believe for one minute mil is happy, as we haven't seen her since so i assume there has been some sort of phonecall from her, that has put him under the fog again.

I did originally say, if the reunion went well they'd be further meetings but due to finding out im pregnant i told him for now i cant cope with it.

forgetmenots

I feel this way--but then I feel like without me they really have no one else.

pumpkin - I wouldn't be surprised if he's hiding something especially as you're pregnant he won't want to worry you (this is exactly what my DH would have said, in that situation). It is such a struggle to deal with and I think you have done the right thing drawing a line while you're pregnant, you could do without the extra stress I bet :(.

queen - this is because you are a nice person trying to do a wonderful and giving thing. Something that should be valued and appreciated. Currently this is not only being taken for granted but it's being abused, actually. The fact that they are making you feel like you want to die sometimes, when everything else is so good is worrying. If the shoe was on the other foot and someone's DH had his violent family staying with his wife and child we would all be telling her to get them thrown out or leave with the child, I'm afraid I feel the same with this if they are not willing to change their behaviour towards you. I worry that you are unable to assert yourself with them, and I wonder how your DS and DH feel when they see you being attacked. :( You don't deserve any of that. I agree with everything tangerine has said.

Oh Queen, your sisters sound like a nightmare! Poor you
Is there not a way they could move out and give you some space?
Or maybe they could reside with your parents as they aren't much better than them, quite frankly
You have your own family to look after, it must be awful to have such a burden placed on you, not to mention their ungratefullness and voilence

No, I can't--they can't do anything on their own either.

Parents live far far away.

I really want to ask them to leave-- I really really do. As horrible as they can be, they do help with DS who has ASD. They do love him; they love DH and me too. They have never been horrible to DS or DH. With me it's quite different.

Growing up I was always picked on and used as the reason everything went wrong. (Brother became addicted to cocaine was my fault---when he broke his arm; again it was my fault)...Everything is my fault.

As soon as I left home my parents have wanted someone to replace the blame on. I don't want them in that spot; they are young and wouldn't be able to handle any of it. They can be very very rude and selfish; often times I hide from them for days because it makes me soo sad. On the other hand, both are on Anti-depressants and are having counselling to help sort themselves out. I do hope the three of us (sisters) can have a happy ending. I really do, I would LOVE a happy family.

Queen - I can understand you feeling protective of your sisters and you are doing a great thing. However, it does sound like you need to put some boundaries in place, for your own future happiness.

So to those who have gone none contact, how long was it before you were able to just put it all behind you and enjoy life? I have been no contact for 2 weeks with my mum. I fully believe it is the best thing for me and wish i had done it sooner. But i am so used to wasting head space on family dramas that I am finding it hard to just switch off. Any tips? I have found myself reading everything i can eg online on personality disorders etc... Think I'm being a bit obsessive with it actually.

Also, I have been gradually realising over the past few weeks that my dad isn't quite the hero I always painted him as. I haven't been completely honest about how much abuse he saw etc. He has never been deliberately cruel and i love him, but I have said for years that mum hid most of her ways from him. Whilst it is true she saved some of her worse stuff for when he was at work, dad saw most of what was going on but chose not to see it, in order to have less hassle from mum. He chose an easy life over the emotional welfare of his children and chose to ignore the emotional damage that caused. That is not right. I have no wish to confront him and am happy to continue contact but I find it strange that I have almost rewritten huge chunks of my childhood in order to paint him as some sort of white knight.

And now, I don't want to cut contact with dad, and mum bullies him dreadfully the last few years. If I cut contact he would be genuinely hurt and my siblings wouldn't understand either and i do love them very much - they are good, kind people. But, dad has refused to see me a couple of times unless mum is there too. Over the last few months things have been really difficult and we have all pulled together to help dad. We would all do anything for him. Yet he cannot say the same back. It's more like, I would do anything for you kids, as long as it does not cause any upset/ inconvenience to your mum.

Also, it has made me question lots of other 'facts' from my childhood. Are me and my siblings really as close as I always claim, or is it a bit more one-sided than I told myself.

And lots of silly things, but if you go no contact with one parent and they live with the other, who you want to keep contact with, do you send christmas/ anniversary cards/ gifts to both of them/ one only (seems a bit petty to me tho), or neither of them? Lots of silly things like this kep going round my head, sorry if this message sounds a bit jumbled or stupid.

good god queen - you are not responsible for your adult sisters lives. They need a good strong talking too, with DH too if needed, and told that if they don't treat you with a bit of respect they will find their arses out on the kerb.
This is not good behaviour for your child to be witnessing and not normal.
Your parents are the screw ups not you so stop feeling responsible - you really do owe your DH and kids this much.

really feel for you in this situation but maybe they need a bit of a shock to wake up to how much you actually do for them.

It is an ongoing process I think milly.

What I would say is that you are not the only one making choices here. If putting up with your mother's abuse is a precondition of being part of the family, that's a condition that your father and/or your siblings have agreed to. They should be able to see you independently so that none of the later awkward questions really arise. If they decide they can't, though, I'm afraid I believe that to be their choice and one which, although very hurtful, would show you that keeping up the facade of family is more important than actually being in one (if you see what I mean). This is what happened to my DH, he now sees neither of his parents or his siblings, because his father and siblings are too heavily invested in maintaining a pretence - in any functioning family a cup of tea between siblings or father and child wouldn't have to run through mum - but she really is omnipotent to them :(

I have no back bone. On the one hand, what you all are saying is totally correct and resonates with how I want things to work in my home.

On the other hand though, these two have left our home country to go NC with our parents...all three of us. I went NC almost 7 years ago. Sister 1 moved in with me 4 years ago and sister 2 has moved in with me 2 years ago.

Youngest sister agreed to pose for pornographic pictures in an attempt to make friends (she is vulnerable and easily taken advantage of); i just can't stop worrying. If she is willing to pose for pornography for a chance at 'friendship' I don't know what else she is willing to do. Both girls suffer from severe lack of self confidence. (the only reason I am constantly worried about this is because--never in a million years would I have thought this was an acceptable way of forming a friendship)

one is far more vindictive than the other and is a bit more prone to aggressiveness--but if they are threatened with the streets, I'm pretty sure they will embrace it with a rebellious rage. If my parents find out about younger sisters latest introduction to the 'arts' I'm not sure how they will treat her; most likely taunt her over her decisions...a few years ago this sister was in a situation where a friend tried to rape her. Instead of comforting her, our parents made fun of her for being such an easy 'target' and for 'encouraging' him. My parents do know better, but by being assholes they can control more when they have killed someones confidence enough.

At that point, I won't care anymore and who knows what will happen to them; because I will have given up on them and as they are adults I know I won't be able to sympathise. I can only sympathise now because they are here and at least pretend to make an effort.

Sister 2 is also currently getting over an alcohol addiction.

what I meant to say was*

if it comes to a point where I do have to show my sisters to the door and ask them to leave my life; I know I will feel absolved because I will have done everything I could have done for them.

I would just leave them to their devices; but I truly know that if left to themselves they will only go back home to parents eventually and things will never get better for them.

Just marking my place. I'm off camping for half term.

I had an altercation with my Mum a couple of weeks ago when she tried to minimise what Dad had done to me and for the first time in 13 months I saw Dad for 5 mins yesterday. Very strange indeed. I'm worried Mum will now think everything is all better and we can go back to playing happy families but he hasn't apologised and he cannot change anyway. So no apology would be enough.

Mum has lent me her car as mine is unwell. I almost feel I'm using her and that she will think I only contact her when I need something but I really need her help. Very conflicted feelings.

Sorry I'm not keeping up right now.

Needed. Not need.

Very tired.

Just a rant to remind me never to bother again.
Well as you know we had the reunion with mil over two weeks ago, since then i have the moods from dh.
He was starting to be happy again, and now sil keeps hassling him over and over, i wasn't sure what about but when i hear him on the phone i can tell he is being hassled.
Anyway fast forward to today, she's harping on about dh doing her garden tomorrow-the fucking garden she & bil have allowed to grow so much out of control they cant cope with it and want dhs helps. Ffs i have told dh i don't want him doing her garden until he has finished ours and to tell her to get on with it herself. What is she inempt, considering her and bil do not work why on earth haven't they found time to tackle it their selfs.
So sil sends niece her with mil for the reunion knowing full well the focus was to be on my dc, and now she thinks she has the green light to get an unpaid skivvy out of dh.
Grrrr