Please help: What would you do?

[babyhammock]

What would you do if you had an ex partner like this, who had virtually no relationship with your child and you had been court ordered to present your child for direct unsupervsed contact.

Verbally abusive such as screaming in your face that you're a fg ct and that he's sick of hearing about the fg baby while you're carrying that child.

Emotionally abusive...threatening you if you see any friends family anyone etc etc etc

Physically threatening (over and over) ..standing over you screaming, with his fists clenched that he's going to put you in hospital, put your head through the f**g window, kill you while you're curled up in a ball crying

Sexually abusive ..while you're still crying and curled up in a ball forces you to have sex

Who also pays nothing in child support despite being court ordered to do so.

Would you break the order and risk enforcement?

when was the last time he saw DS?
what happened on that occasion?
how long has it been since he saw DS?

i think that if you are reporting historic abuse(which is very valid) you dont have a more recent episode to hand, nor specific recent evidence that Ds is at risk? when was the last incident?

can you engineeer a handover in public place or with wtinesses to record any abuse at you? so that you can react immediately call police? and take ds away? then say you tried contact ?

ah i see -handover in motorway services - that isnt good is it? couldnt you engineer a more supervised contact in a different fixed location where he cant take him off in a car so easily... or someone to follow them? clutching at straws...

Waffly you;d think so wouldn't you about writing to your MP, but they simply won't interfere with anything to do with the family courts. Its a closed system with virtually no accountability. I think if they do make an enforcement order my old solicitor says I should have grounds for human rights law in terms of right to a fair trial, homelife and also no punishment without crime. I'm really hoping it doesn't come to that though. Life stops when all this is going on and I want us to live properly now.

Cherries and FarBetter* thank you so much again. I was in such a state when I posted friday and I feel so much stronger now.

Cestlavie its been nearly 2 years. In terms of recent events, all I have is his behaviour in court which reflected his previous attitude to both of us. Nothing has changed. No remorse, no ability to consider DS's needs or welfare and as angry, aggressive and nasty as ever.

He's refusing supervised contact.. he's a man you see and as such doesn't 'have to prove nothink'

In any case the judge has already ignored so much evidence of what happened and so for me to put DS in such a situation to try and get more evidence which will more than likely be ignored too, is inconceivable.

I'm just going to stand completely firm and hope for the best.

what a horrible situation op honestly I'd never let him near my kids.

Thanks HairyHand

What is the date of the last judgement (High court/ court of appeal) ?

You need to get any ECHR appeal in within 6 months of last domestic appeal, but you have to ensure all domestic appeals are exhausted.
I think you still have judicial review or supreme court appeal ?

I would definitely agree your DS's Article 4 and your Article 8 rights are being violated.

Once it gets to the ECHR it takes years and UK courts can't do anything.

You've been treated terribly and these judges are just closing rank; it's disgusting. They have no soul.

All I can suggest is run and hide. Preferably to another country.

Forget your mortgage - can you sell, or rent your house out?

Although Cumfy's idea seems better.

Cumfy thanks so much for your post. I know I'm out of time wrt the last domestic appeal so I'm guessing my recourse would be to appeal on human rights grounds if they put an enforcement order on me obviously in the hope that the facts around the case will have to be heard to do that. Which I know means going to the UK high court again first.

That's exactly how it felt, like the judges were just closing rank.
Thank you again

Sorry Cumfy what is the supreme court appeal? I was told by the administrator at high court that that was it as far as my appeal went.

Beryl not a day goes by when i don't think that. I've not been responding to the court and they actually sent a court bailiff out to serve me. We hid though so he didn't manage to. But when I knew they were going to that, it was pretty awful. I felt like I couldn't blank the situation at all, which is how I normally deal with it, and was permanently on edge feeling like I couldn't leave our house without checking first.

Supreme court, but there's only a 14 day time limit for an appeal from the date of the High Court decision (the same as the court of appeal).

As I understand it, if these deadlines are missed you can't then appeal to the ECHR as missing an appeal date, doesn't count as exhausting domestic remedy.

The only "loophole" could be whatever you were told at the high court made you genuinely believe at that point you had no further route of appeal.

Did they give you any further documents with the judgement (or any other time) which detailled routes of further appeal ?

You would also have to be careful at what point you then learnt of further routes of appeal as that would be when the ECHR 6 month clock would start "ticking".

And i agree with Jayhoo. . Stall! And when you do, and when Cafcass get involved do not mention child support. They may just tick the aggrieved mother/vindictive bitch box

There is no way I would allow my DC near that animal. What is wrong with that judge? What more evidence do they want? He literally punched his ex's daughter and the court is allowing 'un-supervised' contact??!! Jesus!

Sorry OP but If I was you, I'd do anything to stop that monster anywhere near my child, including going to the paper! says the lady awaiting STBXH who nearly ended my life to sue me fo full custody I'm absolutely petrified having read your story. I'm so sorry babyHammock I sincerely wish you all the best and I hope you'll conquer this battle.

Cumfy thank you for that link. I also googled it after I got your first message. I had no idea you could do that. But yes they don't give you much time. I know it was a mad rush to prepare everything for the appeal court.

The judgement was handed down on 17th August as was the order that was made on the back of that judgement for unsupervised contact.

I had an oral hearing at the High Court of Appeal on the 6th September when the judge told me he would not give me permission to appeal.

I got an email with that order attached a few days later and a letter with the order about a week after that. There was nothing in there other than the order and nothing that detailed any further routes of appeal. I phoned the High Court the day after the oral hearing to see if there was anything else I could pursue and was actually told there was nothing further I could do.

At the time I did wonder if I'd have grounds for appeal with the European Court but I was just so totally broken and exhausted with the whole process I couldn't find the strength to pursue it. Life stops when all this is going on.

But because the high court added that our address was not to be disclosed what ever (another similar order with a penile notice attached had also been made by the lower court earlier on during the proceedings), my old solicitor thought that as we had that the safest option would be to lie low, not respond and see what happened. That was obviously off the record.

If they do catch up with me and try to enforce, would I be able to appeal that on the grounds of right to a fair trial or no punishment with evidence of guilt?

Spirited Thank you. He was court ordered to pay child support and I haven't and don't have any intention of trying to recover any of the money. In my mind its just another example of his disregard for DS's welfare and his 'entitledness' in claiming financial compensation from me. But yes, I will continue to stall.

Shades thank you and so sorry you're in a similar situation. I really really hope it goes well for you. But no I won't be complying. My old solicitor is not actually sure what they could do to make me either, esp given the circumstances.

Praying every day babyhammock that nothing comes through your door.

Thanks Better, I've all my fingers crossed for you too.

If you took the 6th September judgement as the starting point that gives 6th March as the deadline for ECHR.

Clearly though there is the issue of what discussions you had with solicitor who must have known about routes of appeal versus the information the court gave you indicating there were no further routes of appeal. However if you are satisfied you were genuinely unaware of further appeal rights:

In terms of appealing to the ECHR, there is an ECHR Application form, but since time is tight so long as you post a letter (Airsure/InternationalSignedFor) by 6th March (in fact you can date 6th and post 7th) indicating you wish to appeal and outlining the circumstances/nature of your appeal then you should be in time and would have a few weeks or so to put the application proper in. Also attach the final judgement.

It's very useful to know the strict ECHR violations.
And in your particular in this case it will be vital to emphasise that because you have been misinformed by the court regarding any further route of appeal or simply state that the High Court has determined on 6th Sept that you absolutely had no further route of appeal domestically.

Basically ECHR bung 1000s of otherwise worthy applications straight in the bin every year because domestic remedy has not been exhausted, and will do so with yours if you didn't make crystal clear why you didn't go further than the High court.

There's stuff on their site and this page has Basic application info

You may need legal advice, but ECHR routinely accept direct personal applications without any legal representation.

Cumfy wow thank you. So I can do that then, take the 6th september appeal court date? It doesn't have to be the date of the original judgement?

I honestly had no idea about the supreme court and my solicitor didn't either hence why I phoned the high court to ask.

In terms of rights that have been contravened, would it be right to fair trial? or would it be one of the others in terms of DS's right to be safe or no punishment without evidence? or possibly a combination?

I think it would it would be correct to state state that the High Court had determined I absolutely had no further route of appeal domestically.

I'll do something tonight when DS goes to bed. I have written tons of of stuff already as well as the stuff I prepared for the court of appeal.

I'll do it!

Just wanted to add my support to the others - you have been massively let down by the legal system but you are showing a lot of guts and resolve in the face of it. You are a wonderful example and a great Mum to your ds.

I'm so sorry you've been through this. I just don't undertand where that judge was coming from at all. I don't have any suggestions - at best you had a completely incompetent judge and worst you had a woman-hating judge...it makes no sense after the evidence that was given that he would order unsupervised contact.

Hi. I know you have not had a good experience with cafcass so far, but I think they are the ones who are best placed to help you with this.

I say this as a family court advisor myself. If you can evidence this mans vile behaviour, I would certainly not be recommending unsupervised contact, if at all.

Feel free to pm me if I can help.

God, babyhammock, what a horrific experience you have had. So sorry. And yes, you are showing a hell of a lot of guts and it is obvious that you will go to the ends of the earth to protect you child from this absolute monster.

Just wanted to wish you all the luck in the world and hope you find a good solution. It sounds as though Darnley really might be able to help you. I really hope so.

YellowBrick and Scarlet thank you
I have Pm'd Darnely and I've drafted the letter that Cumfy suggested and I'll work on it some more over the weekend and will send it Monday.

Everyone's been so kind

I wish people would realise that this is the reality of the family courts and Cafcass. People mistakenly believe that the courts favour women not men.

The bottom line is that the courts believe that contact of any description is better than none.

I have been treated as utterly worthless in court and it has definately taken its toll on me and affected my relationship with my children.

So happy to see so many brilliantly helpful, knowledgable posters on here tonight babyhammock ! I'm thinking of you and all others coping with this horrendous scenario. xx

Little having read of the experiences of women on mn I can well believe it. I'm sosorry you have had to go through that.