Is he a narcissist?

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Had a long conversation with H last night. Relationship has been rather rocky since last summer when a couple of people pointed out to him how badly he treats me and I used the opportunity to say I feel that, too - I wrote a letter which said as kindly as possible "get counselling or I'm not sure I can see a way forward."

Anyway, I can see I've been a bit doormattish over the years and as there's no obvious way to leave at the moment, I'm trying to be more assertive and not crumple at the first sign of conflict. He's trying to persuade me to move overseas and last night's conversation was a result of my holding my ground and saying I don't want to as our relationship isn't strong enough.

Feel rather sorry for him, really, as he seemed so lost and confused. He feels he's just been giving since the summer and getting nowhere as a result. He understands that I think he's critical and is trying to be more complimentary, but is offended because I said that his vague compliments are less convincing than his specific criticisms! Asked me if I remember him complimenting my cooking the other day (I do as I was pleasantly surprised, recognised that one as genuine!) ? and he thinks this is trying hard: this is how superficial he thinks the problem is?

He just can't focus on what I'm saying - his mind keeps slipping straight back to his perspective. So I say we have huge relationship problems and he says he thinks we should look at which countries would be easiest for me to live in! I pointed out that we still wouldn't have an equal marriage: he'd still think it was ok to tell me off and feel he needs to pressurise me to spend my time wisely so that I don't squander it on selfish 'me time' activities. But he thinks the latter of these problems is a sign of a healthy equal relationship! And wishes I would nudge him back to his study when he's relaxing too long, since he admits he has no self-control.

He thinks I hold all the cards, since I'm willing to walk out despite having promised 12 years ago not to. So I can say, in effect, ?I don?t want to move overseas, so bye!? Which seems quite insulting, too.

Even when at 1am I said I was feeling sick, he talked on for a while about his day and how he hadn?t accomplished as much as he?d wanted to.

I?m not sure how clear all this is, but I came out of the conversation feeling it was really disconnected and he just couldn?t look at me and see me! I?m increasingly doubtful of my perspective, so thought I?d seek some other opinions, but may not be expressing what I saw clearly enough for you to tell. Does his behaviour seem narcissistic to you? Or is it me who?s miles from reality? Any comments appreciated!

Firstly, do you have children with him?

As to whether he sounds narcissistic, I can't honestly say, but he definitely sounds self-centred and certainly controlling.

When he says you hold all the cards, could the exact same not be sai of him, ie. he can go and move abroad and leave you, as you aren't planning on going?

To be honest, he sounds like a tool.

Selfish, ego-centric, narcissistic, authoritarian ... what's in a name? He certainly lacks empathy, doesn't seem to care about you very much, and his selfishness seems to extend to bullying and browbeating. Pressuring someone into how they spend their time ... what is he, your Dad? :) Making a big deal of compliments sounds more like point-scoring than genuine sentiment.

All you need to understand is that you are #1 priority in your life, bossing you around is not acceptable and respond by being as assertive as possible.

It sounds as if you are talking at cross purposes during your discussions - so when he 'tries hard' he's doing it from an unchanged basis (ie his POV) , whereas what you're asking is for him to see things differently (from your POV). I'm no expert, but this doesnt spund particularly narcissistic/controlling to me as presented - he acknowledges the need for things to be different, and his role in that, but his capacity to make the shift is limited. Any Aspergers-type traits?

What are the reasons for moving abroad - is he re-locating with work or is it to get you to be nearer to his family?

PS I meant to add, the 'how you spend your time' thing is interesting, as he clearly wants you to perform the same role for him ie tell him when playtime is over & it's time to get back to work...

Yes, he seems to be a weird mixture of controlling and reactive in that way, walk; I've thought that before.

We have 4 dcs. Who get told off when they argue and told they should think about his needs because he's stressed/working/whatever. He can do conflict resolution at work, but at home? Nah, it's all "think about me."

I'm glad he seems controlling from this conversation, as I've thought that in the past and have been losing my sense of it, it feels so normal sometimes.

Loops, he says he'd never leave me as he takes the marriage vows seriously, therefore I can abuse that knowledge.

I suppose it doesn't matter what it is, exactly, only I'd like to know whether he can change.

Meant also to say that he thought we had a "mutual understanding" about something which he'd told me his perspective on and I'd listened. But then I guess I've nearly always complied in the past, so he has a right to think that's enough this time too.

Moving abroad is for his work - he wouldn't easily find a job in this country at his level at the moment. I appreciate that, but don't want to leave everything behind (have done this before when I wasn't so worried about the state of our marriage and it put a huge strain on our relationship) to start afresh with just him and 4 unsettled dcs, if the marriage isn't going to last.

To be honest, I was on my way out, even had a house lined up to move into, but the house is no longer available and he's started talking a bit more honestly. So I'm left feeling uncertain what to do next again. I've thought he was narcissistic in the past, but things don't fit, so maybe I've got a problem with close relationships? He's certainly said in the past that he's got more social nouse/emotional intelligence or whatever than I have.

The thing is, he seems totally unable to see my POV. To the extent that he was annoyed at me for not realising he was on the phone, when he was behind me! I have tried to explain how I see things, over and over. Usually he responds by saying, "I don't think like that," and then talks on and on about how he thinks. Not that he's saying I ought to think like that, just that he's only engaged with what I said in so far as it has any relevance to him.

I think he displays a dire lack of emotional intelligence actually.

He's very manipulative isn't he?

I think you'd be better off without, because I can't see he's going to change in any real sense.

The only emotional 'intelligence' he has, regards his own emotions. He doesn't appear to have any awareness of yours.

"He's certainly said in the past that he's got more social nous/emotional intelligence or whatever than I have."

Er no, no he hasn't. Saying so doesn't make it so.

How would you get by if he went abroad and you didn't? Are you self-supporting or able to be?

'Enough about you, lets talk about me' - Les Carter. Kindle download or order off Amazon.

I think this sense you have that he is "disconnected" and unable to hear you must be very disconcerting for you. Do you feel confused and put down as a result? I used to have a friend like that, and our conversations were always fraught and confusing for me. I even often felt damaged after I met up with her, even though on the surface she was fun and interesting.

It does sound like he might have some strong narcissistic traits which is maybe why some things fit and some things don't. However, he may also be just very disconnected emotionally, which is not quite the same thing.

I wound be very wary of agreeing to move whilst you consider your options. Don't be railroaded into a decision or bother arguing with him about it. I think you are doing the right thing just being more aware when you are interacting with him in the meantime, it will give you more insight and clarity. If your husband is pushing to move for a job, let him go ahead and do it by himself, it may make things easier for you if he does!

" the house is no longer available and he's started talking a bit more honestly."

This is what I call 'good cop, bad cop'. When an emotional bully thinks they're losing the game they hold out good behaviour just long enough to reel you back in. Good Cop. Once safely back in the cage they revert to type. Bad Cop. All the time you remain optimistic enough to hope that Good Cop is the 'real him', this technique will keep working.

Keep raising the stakes, being assertive, challenging. Fight fire with fire.

It might be that you identify [his personality] with some of the narcissist traits because narcissists tend to be abusive/controlling by nature, but not all abusers/controlling people are narcissists although they share some traits. If that makes sense? Perhaps try focusing your thoughts/reading/research on emotional abuse (what he does) rather than what he is or isn't (narcissism) because otherwise you're going to keep coming up against this frustrating wall of "But it doesn't fit."

Worth remembering also that no two abusers are the same - my ex was horribly controlling but used to pull his weight in the house (granted, while moaning about it, but he happily cooked very often) whereas some abusers are happy to allow their wives freedom but expect a 1950s style deal at home. So if you're reading any profile of abuse or anything don't fall into the trap of thinking "Oh, but he doesn't do this, so maybe he's not an abuser?" - if he's doing anything on one of those lists, then he is :(

Have you read the oft-recommended "Why Does He Do That"? That also has various profiles of different "kinds" of abusers.

Anything on one of the lists? He certainly does. I've read Why Does He Do That, but recently read the bit where he says not all controlling people are abusers... then got confused in chapter 5 as to whether he's EA or not. The thing with looking at the EA sites, is sooner or later I say to myself, "But he's not aggressive, insulting or physically abusive," and then start minimising the rest. Because it's all so normal!

Hello, Leclerc, thanks for all your kind words. You are too patient with me! I was expecting short shrift on this thread, really and am a bit overwhelmed by the kindness - but perhaps that's just what I'm trained to expect. Not long ago, some man I vaguely know said, "Hello" to me and I almost dissolved at the sheer normality of it!!

I know I have a lot of support on the EA thread, but I wonder sometimes if ppl on there overidentify with me because they're thinking of their own situations, so I wanted to ask ppl more generally.

But I'm so relieved to be told he's controlling and manipulative - I have a sense that he is (sometimes!), but then he says this stuff about telling each other what to do being normal and healthy and I start questioning myself!

jane - I kind of wish he would go ahead and move overseas anyway, but he won't go without me. He'll stay and manipulate as long as he can and that's pretty scary. It's why I didn't mention leaving while making my plans, which seemed weird to the family and friends I told, because I knew he'd do his best to talk me out of it and leave me in the fog again. Unfortunately, he worked it out - and it's happening just as I predicted! Only I still find it semi-convincing!

"Enough about you, let's talk about me." - I think I read that one. It's about all sort of relationships with narcissists, no? And if it's the book I'm thinking of, gives ideas of how to manage the relationship, rather than examining the pitfalls of staying in it. I honestly struggle to see what damage this relationship could do and maybe already is doing.

I think the damage of a relationship like this is what it does to your confidence long-term. When you're constantly questioning your own judgement it can become a behavioural habit that affects other aspects of life. You described yourself as 'a bit doormattish' earlier. Does that apply to your job, interactions with others, have you become a 'people-pleaser'? Would someone who knew you well as a teen recognise the woman you are now?

Sadly, it's often only with the benefit of hindsight that you can accurately determine how much and how badly you've been affected .... not something that is easy to achieve whilst you're in the relationship and trying to manage it.

Charlotte I recognise the spaghetti head mess you are describing so well. My FW ex didnt really fit any description I read but he could scramble my brains and make me doubt myself with the smallest effort. The only thing you need to realise is that he is bad for your mental wellbeing.
Imagine life without him. Is that a plus or a minus? Easy really!

I don't have my copy to hand to check the context, but I would disagree that all controlling people are not abusers - I think that control is a form of EA, and in fact control underlies ALL forms of abuse, whether it's physically violent, verbal, financially controlling whatever, that's just the method - the underlying attitude and objective is the same. I suppose if someone had controlling tendencies but was respectful enough to accept that others won't always do what they want them to do, then that's not abusive. But if someone is bullying or manipulating others into doing what they want, then that is abuse, no?

Perhaps it would help to contrast with a healthy relationship? If you ask people what would happen in certain situations in their relationships, and you'll probably get a range of replies. I know I found this very helpful when struggling with "Is it me??" and you really can lose sight of what is normal so easily, or not really know what's normal in the first place.

So for example - you say that he thinks telling each other what to do is normal and healthy. I don't think it is at all. You would tell a child what to do. You would tell your employee what to do. You don't tell your spouse what to do. You might make a request, like asking them to pick something up from town on their way through, and you could reasonably expect them to do so if it was practical. You wouldn't get mad if they forgot or they went and found they were out of stock or something.

You might also give each other suggestions or pointers, like DP and I will discuss the way we deal with DS for example and I might say "The other day when you... why don't you try..." and he would do the same for me.

My confidence has always been low, but I have been thinking that in an ideal world I would feel more confident with the help of a supportive partner, rather than struggling to maintain the status quo.

You might also give each other suggestions or pointers, like DP and I will discuss the way we deal with DS for example and I might say "The other day when you... why don't you try..." and he would do the same for me.

That suggestion makes me feel so weary - which then makes me wonder if I'm just not committed enough. Because he'd love that and expects it and won't do any thinking for himself - just wants me to say, "Hey, it'd be great if you put stuff away after you make yourself a sandwich," or "You know, the kids would really appreciate it if you made a bit of time for them in the evenings." These things seem really basic to me but are clearly not obvious to him - and it just seems like endless nagging, then, which I don't like and neither does he. I feel like I have 5 children sometimes!

Lemon - that is easy! Life without him is so much more relaxed. I have to look again at how the finances would work, though. Our finances are so complicated I'm really not sure what the implications of my leaving would be. I've always resented the fact that our finances are so complicated I don't understand them and he never has the time to explain it all because he's too busy working all hours.