Is he a narcissist?

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Had a long conversation with H last night. Relationship has been rather rocky since last summer when a couple of people pointed out to him how badly he treats me and I used the opportunity to say I feel that, too - I wrote a letter which said as kindly as possible "get counselling or I'm not sure I can see a way forward."

Anyway, I can see I've been a bit doormattish over the years and as there's no obvious way to leave at the moment, I'm trying to be more assertive and not crumple at the first sign of conflict. He's trying to persuade me to move overseas and last night's conversation was a result of my holding my ground and saying I don't want to as our relationship isn't strong enough.

Feel rather sorry for him, really, as he seemed so lost and confused. He feels he's just been giving since the summer and getting nowhere as a result. He understands that I think he's critical and is trying to be more complimentary, but is offended because I said that his vague compliments are less convincing than his specific criticisms! Asked me if I remember him complimenting my cooking the other day (I do as I was pleasantly surprised, recognised that one as genuine!) ? and he thinks this is trying hard: this is how superficial he thinks the problem is?

He just can't focus on what I'm saying - his mind keeps slipping straight back to his perspective. So I say we have huge relationship problems and he says he thinks we should look at which countries would be easiest for me to live in! I pointed out that we still wouldn't have an equal marriage: he'd still think it was ok to tell me off and feel he needs to pressurise me to spend my time wisely so that I don't squander it on selfish 'me time' activities. But he thinks the latter of these problems is a sign of a healthy equal relationship! And wishes I would nudge him back to his study when he's relaxing too long, since he admits he has no self-control.

He thinks I hold all the cards, since I'm willing to walk out despite having promised 12 years ago not to. So I can say, in effect, ?I don?t want to move overseas, so bye!? Which seems quite insulting, too.

Even when at 1am I said I was feeling sick, he talked on for a while about his day and how he hadn?t accomplished as much as he?d wanted to.

I?m not sure how clear all this is, but I came out of the conversation feeling it was really disconnected and he just couldn?t look at me and see me! I?m increasingly doubtful of my perspective, so thought I?d seek some other opinions, but may not be expressing what I saw clearly enough for you to tell. Does his behaviour seem narcissistic to you? Or is it me who?s miles from reality? Any comments appreciated!

Ah, okay, that's not what I meant at all. The kinds of things that DP and I suggest to each other are much less obvious than putting stuff away after making a sandwich or things like that if that makes sense? It's more like - hmm, trying to think of a real life example! I am struggling quite a bit with DS recently. I got really frustrated and was letting off some steam about it to DP, which was when he observed that DS is starting to come into his personality now, and the bits that we're clashing are where we're both too similar. So he was able to offer me a new perspective on that, and it helped. He didn't jump straight in though, he let me work it out for myself and then only offered help when I asked for it even though I don't think I specifically asked "What should I do?". He saw that I was struggling and he offered help. We definitely don't think for each other, but sometimes we are able to offer a new perspective about something that the other has not thought of.

If you're having to ask/nag over basic things and all the time, then that's a different issue from the telling each other what to do thing, I think anyway. Because a respectful person makes an effort to not keep doing stuff that annoys their partner, like leaving dirty food prep out for them to clean up etc, and it's reasonable to expect an adult to remember basic things like tidying and paying attention to the children, especially if it's all the time that he's expecting you to keep reminding him.

Ahh, that's a relief, Bertie! Funny how words can mean such different things to different people, isn't it? That sounds much more reasonable and grown-up and supportive. Like things were with my BF before I met H - I met up with him again recently (H keeps in touch with him as he worked with him for a while.) and things were so much easier just chatting to him and making plans to go for a walk. I felt relaxed and happy. I suppose I only feel like that with H when I let him control everything.

Or I'm enjoying life despite him.

I think I want someone to tell me to leave him. MN is the right place to come, then! :o How do I get over this desire to have someone else run my life for me? Think I never learnt how to make decisions as a child, but that doesn't help me with learning to welcome it now!

"How do I get over this desire to have someone else run my life for me?"

By far the best way to do that is to put yourself into a position where you have to make your own decisions ie. Independence. When there is no-one requiring you ask permission and no-one to fall back on, it's amazing how quickly you step up and take charge. I've lived independently for many years, make all my own decisions (for better or worse) & live with the consequences. If I need someone's opinion I run it past a friend.

Until you can be truly independent just act like you are. Don't ask his permission, agree with his arguments or listen to his instructions. Do your own sweet thing.... zero tolerance. What have you got to lose?

I tried that for a couple of days last month. By the end of the second day, he was calling me lazy and selfish. It was said in such a sad voice (his father used disappointment as a tool to keep him in line) that I couldn't see it as abuse. I didn't go as far as believing him, but I couldn't see what he was doing as wrong, so I doubted myself in that way.

I think you're absolutely right about independence and having to make my own decisions. I get that to an extent when he's off on his business travels and I do it fine. Then he comes back and he says I'm so controlling because I have routines for the dcs and he refuses to learn them or get involved in them - and I guess then I start dancing the gaslighting tango with him...

What on earth are you doing in this relationship? The man sounds like a massive head-fucker! Just from reading your posts here, I've got the feeling of trying to hold on to a handful of water.

I've not been on the EA threads recently - have you been exploring how H uses the same manipulative techniques as your father? It would be a good idea to examine this in counselling after you've split.

I fully understand how your marriage has disempowered you, so you feel you can't / mustn't / shouldn't divorce this unpleasant piece of work. But I want you know life shouldn't be this much of an emotional minefield - and it doesn't have to be. When you prove to your four DC, too, that we don't stick around with people who undermine us and make us walk on eggshells, you'll be teaching them something valuable.

Leave the weirdo.

It was his father, not mine.

That's a fantastic bit of perspective, thanks garlic!

Oh dear, I'm sorry I got the wrong father! Glad to have helped, anyway :)

Ok. His behaviour to me is wrong and I don't have to put up with it any more. He says he's changing, but I see small changes that fail to address any big issues. I don't quite believe what I'm writing, but that's ok - next week when he goes on his next trip I will have time to sit down and examine all the evidence: reading my journal helps.

Now how to face the future... We can't talk well about things for four months now(!) because he's travelling all that time, so I could just pretend I'm staying, get on with plans for leaving, and practise being assertive. Meanwhile, though, he's wanting us to make plans for September - new jobs, move overseas - which as I've said I'm resisting. Is this more manipulation/control? He's asked me to put up and shut up for 4 months while he ensnares me for x more?

Anything he does which simply disregards your explicit feelings and wishes is manipulative, and controlling.

Don't be conned by him. If he's the type of man you can safely challenge (is he?), remind him that you're uncertain about the future, and can make no promises at all. If he's not, be non-committal, and stick firmly to your exit plans.

Physically, I feel safe. Mentally, he has the ability to reach inside my head and mess everything up thoroughly and still look like he's harmless and wonderful. I feel scared even to confront him enough to say what you've suggested, lady. Mind you, last night, I felt a little buzz of excitement every time I quietly stood my ground, so maybe I should give it a go - it might do me good!

Thanks, GB. I need a kick up the bs sometimes to keep me on track - just been sweeping it all under the carpet again! :o

I've put that thread on Threads I'm Watching and am looking forward to reading it once I have time.

Those of you who've said he sounds controlling or manipulative, could you explain why? I have a feeling that he is, but I can't put my finger on it. And reading back through the thread - well, I know I was in a rush to write while he wasn't in the room, but I can't even understand what I've written myself - I can't see much of a problem with it all, so I don't know what my point was! Am reassured that some of you saw things to worry about regardless.

I get Leverette's points. Is there anything else I'm normalising? I'm sorry to go on!

CharlotteC, sorry, this is going to be a long one. :)

The trouble with words such as 'abuse' is that it's easy to say ? 'oh but I'm not being abused', and then revert to wondering why you're so confused and unhappy, since nothing obvious is going on. He's not standing over you and shouting, so where's the abuse? Why, it must be your problem after all.

This certainly happened to my friend - who WAS being abused, without question. You can end up minimising some pretty cruel behaviour because it doesn't come across as overtly 'abusive' (even though it is).

I will stick with the words controlling and manipulative for the moment, and pick apart some of what we've seen here.

So, first: he feels entitled to see some change in your response because he's been, as he sees it 'giving since the summer'.

Two problems here: one, he has to put conscious effort into something other people do naturally, ie being pleasant and caring to others! Two, he isn't entitled to a change in your response. You don't owe him the response he wants. Even if someone is genuinely wonderful to you, you do not by definition have to love them or want them in your life. If it's not genuine and feels forced, of course, the same applies! He's trying to push his agenda over your wishes.

Secondly: as soon as I saw that he pressurises you to spend your time wisely, my hackles rose. If someone said that to me, I would call them a self-righteous prig! Since you are a mother of four, his wife, and he's asking you not to 'squander' your time on 'selfish' activities - as defined by him ? it is also hideously controlling and manipulative.

That's because it's your decision how to spend your time. But he wants to make those decisions for you - and effectively control your time. And it's manipulative because he's tapped into that sense of mild guilt any of us might feel when we're less productive ? oh, I really ought to be doing the ironing, taking the children for a walk ? as well as any normal person's wish not be seen as selfish. Voila ? you find yourself uneasy, and wondering if he's right.

Next: saying he'd never leave you as he takes the marriage vows seriously is very cloying and manipulative. It's a way of saying 'you'll never get rid of me! And if you do leave, it will be all your fault - because I'm a better person than you. You are inferior because you clearly don't take your vows seriously.'

So if you try to leave, you will be thinking, oh poor H, he said I'd be abusing this knowledge and I am. Now he's hurt, I must be awful. He's so much better than me.

So he gets what he wants, with just a small push of the guilt button. And you don't leave.

Finally ? acting as if you have never said you don't want something is very blatant manipulation. I think it is one of the most dangerous forms. This kind of behaviour marks out criminals.

So you say ? "I don't want to move abroad because I'm unsure about our relationship."
He says ? "fine. Now which country would you prefer? I've heard Antarctica is nice this time of year, etc?"

This leaves you confused and wondering ? did he not understand, or not hear? Did I say it wrongly? I'm so muddled these days. Oh dear, now I don't like to say anything. He will be upset, and angry: and I don't want to be rude, and maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. Oh maybe I should go along with it, he might be right?.. etc..

And he's got his way again, just by refusing to hear you.

Again, apologies that this is so long. By now I know a fair few tricks manipulators pull, and it makes me angry when nice people are ground down by them.

Add the above to the terrifying posts you made on GB's thread - and I've no compunction in urging you to please, continue your exit plans...

a couple of people pointed out to him how badly he treats me

You know this is unusual, don't you? People hate 'interfering' in others' relationships. It has to be bad before they'll say anything - and they're more likely to say it to the perceived victim than the abuser. If others have actually told him to improve his treatment of you, they must have been quite shocked by something they saw/heard.

He's offended because I said that his vague compliments are less convincing than his specific criticisms!

It is strange that he claims not to know the difference between a vague compliment and a specific one. Does he have special educational needs?
Assuming he doesn't - he is minimising and denying your feelings of being criticised more thoroughly than you're appreciated. A decent person would be upset that they hadn't shown you how well they think of you.
In claiming to be offended, he's blaming you for something that isn't your fault.

In short, the message you're intended to receive is that your feelings & needs don't matter. You're meant to be grateful for the half-hearted compliments and to know he considers this a major concession. And, lest you forget your station, you are told it's offensive to question his beneficence.

Asked me if I remember him complimenting my cooking the other day (I do as I was pleasantly surprised, recognised that one as genuine!) ? and he thinks this is trying hard

Was this "trying hard" because your cooking is awful and he didn't mean the compliment? Or do his special educational needs make it terribly difficult for him to give credit where it's due?
Why did he remember complimenting your cooking? When somebody cooks you a meal, you probably compliment it as a matter of course. The fact that you did so probably doesn't stick in your mind for ten minutes. He wants you to know such common courtesies are not available to you.

This entire thing is, yet again, about teaching you your station and that you must not expect appreciation from your husband.
He's withholding the normal intimacy needed for a close relationship, discounting your perception and diverting your complaint from the general to the specific.

He just can't focus on what I'm saying - his mind keeps slipping straight back to his perspective. So I say we have huge relationship problems and he says he thinks we should look at which countries would be easiest for me to live in!

He can't focus on what you're saying? That SEN again?!
He's not interested in what you're saying because your thoughts, feelings and opinions don't matter to him.
He's only interested in whether he can get any leverage from it, to further his own agenda.

This is blocking and diverting the conversation, ignoring your point and discounting what you wanted to say.

I haven't even reached the end of your first post!!!

Read these.
www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/emotional_abuse.html
www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/verbal_abuse.html
mountcope.wordpress.com/types-of-emotional-abuse/

I think the Freedom Programme would do you a lot of good.

xposted, lady :)

Oh, yes, you posted some great stuff on GB's thread in order to encourage her to leave an H who sounds rather scarily similar to yours. Now, if you decide yours isn't so bad after all, she might start to feel the same. You owe it to her to leave the bastard! (Sorry for talking about you behind your back, as it were, GB.)

" By the end of the second day, he was calling me lazy and selfish. "

Here's an example of controlling behaviour. When not obeying his instructions for a couple of days results not only in disapproval but insults (regardless of the tone of voice in which they are delivered), that's bullying/controlling behaviour.

My test would be this. When thinking about the future do you find yourself dismissing certain ideas because you know he would never allow it'? Do you avoid doing things you enjoy or value because you know it'll be made fun of or damned with faint praise? Do you find yourself second-guessing fairly ordinary daily decisions against what he might think or say? Do you avoid starting talking about certain subjects because you know in advance they'll get a negative response?

There's very little more dehumanising than simply not being listened to. The one time I felt seriously suicidal was when I was in the process of leaving XH but still living together. He wanted to keep the house but realistically couldn't buy me out. So he said when all the DCs were together over Christmas he would hold a family conference to discuss mortgages. (He told me he'd told them, but that turned out to be rubbish, unsurprisingly.) Christmas came and went, and on New Year's Eve I asked if he had had a chance to talk to the DCs about the house. He said "Look, I bought you some birdseed," and waved a pack of birdseed at me. I went into my bedroom with a full bottle of port, tried to lock the door and found the key had mysteriously disappeared, went to the cupboard to look for large quantities of painkillers and found two aspirin. I couldn't even fucking kill myself. That's what true despair feels like. I wept for hours.

(It was the wrong type of birdseed, too.)

He sounds very ASD to me actually. I have had a similar situation myself and that was his problem. Felt sometime as if he was speaking from a script and it mattered not what mt response was, he just carried on.

That's brilliant! Thank you each for every one of your replies. I was nodding a lot as I read! I have read lots of descriptions of EA, but although sometimes I think, "Oh yes, he does that," more often the things he does are so subtle (to me!) that I read stuff about blocking and diverting for example and can't honestly say whether he's doing that or not. I read other people's threads and the replies are so helpful in pointing out what's wrong with the behaviour described, but then I wonder if I'd get the same sort of commentary or not! I think I said already that sometimes "hello" and a smile is more consideration than I expect, so perhaps those two things are related. Anyway, I'm going to re-read these responses often so that they become part of my mental armoury against the it's-not-really-happening thoughts!

GB, bizarrely enough, my weirdo H still says sometimes that it'd be nice to have more, despite always wanting four and, more importantly, despite my now being sterilised. But as I follow your thread, I find myself feeling ashamed at how easily I gave in to his pressure about a 4th, to the point that the story in my head now runs: he expressed a strong desire for 4. I expressed a strong desire to stick at 3. He reiterated his strong desire for 4. I said ok, since it's important to you, we'll do it and I'll make the best of it.

Last night, I wanted to go to bed and he wanted me to stay up to talk (plans for new kitchen), so I felt rather grumpy but did stay up because I didn't think it was fair to say no when he is going away on a long trip on Monday, and the kitchen is going in in a month, so we are running out of time to fine-tune things. So as not to give in to the grumpiness, I made jokes out of stuff to cope, which he found funny, so I probably gave the impression that I didn't really mind. It was probably the same with the 4th dc discussion: once I'd backed down, I owned the decision as mine and determined to make the best of it, so that when he said, "No, you're not really happy with that," I would have said, "No, really, it'll be nice to have a baby again," because I saw the impasse and knew he wouldn't back down and didn't know what else to do. I was pretty dishonest, really - or, no, actually I convinced myself that it would be fine and disowned my feelings about sticking at 3.

Which brings me back to that story about crashing the car because I convinced myself it would be fine, because H wasn't there to tell me if I could do the manoeuvre or not - think I told that on GB's thread already. Oh dear. Yes, I suppose the Freedom Programme could do me some good - I'm probably pretty screwed up!!

Oh, and yeah, I do feel guilty about cheering GB on and then having a mahoosive wobble about the seriousness of my own situation! But maybe I was trying to leave too soon because a house was available; maybe it's good that the house went and I now have some more processing time, so that when I do leave it's for good.