Is he a narcissist?

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Had a long conversation with H last night. Relationship has been rather rocky since last summer when a couple of people pointed out to him how badly he treats me and I used the opportunity to say I feel that, too - I wrote a letter which said as kindly as possible "get counselling or I'm not sure I can see a way forward."

Anyway, I can see I've been a bit doormattish over the years and as there's no obvious way to leave at the moment, I'm trying to be more assertive and not crumple at the first sign of conflict. He's trying to persuade me to move overseas and last night's conversation was a result of my holding my ground and saying I don't want to as our relationship isn't strong enough.

Feel rather sorry for him, really, as he seemed so lost and confused. He feels he's just been giving since the summer and getting nowhere as a result. He understands that I think he's critical and is trying to be more complimentary, but is offended because I said that his vague compliments are less convincing than his specific criticisms! Asked me if I remember him complimenting my cooking the other day (I do as I was pleasantly surprised, recognised that one as genuine!) ? and he thinks this is trying hard: this is how superficial he thinks the problem is?

He just can't focus on what I'm saying - his mind keeps slipping straight back to his perspective. So I say we have huge relationship problems and he says he thinks we should look at which countries would be easiest for me to live in! I pointed out that we still wouldn't have an equal marriage: he'd still think it was ok to tell me off and feel he needs to pressurise me to spend my time wisely so that I don't squander it on selfish 'me time' activities. But he thinks the latter of these problems is a sign of a healthy equal relationship! And wishes I would nudge him back to his study when he's relaxing too long, since he admits he has no self-control.

He thinks I hold all the cards, since I'm willing to walk out despite having promised 12 years ago not to. So I can say, in effect, ?I don?t want to move overseas, so bye!? Which seems quite insulting, too.

Even when at 1am I said I was feeling sick, he talked on for a while about his day and how he hadn?t accomplished as much as he?d wanted to.

I?m not sure how clear all this is, but I came out of the conversation feeling it was really disconnected and he just couldn?t look at me and see me! I?m increasingly doubtful of my perspective, so thought I?d seek some other opinions, but may not be expressing what I saw clearly enough for you to tell. Does his behaviour seem narcissistic to you? Or is it me who?s miles from reality? Any comments appreciated!

Lundy Bancroft is a great eye opener.

There is a list of abuse somewhere. Maybe he doesn't lay a finger on you, he doesn't raise his voice, but does he tick off a LOT of the emotional and sexual ones?

It is a real confusion clearer.

A bit worried now that this new way of telling the dc4 conception story has made ppl see the story in a completely different light. I didn't mean to mislead when I first told it; I just interpret what happened in different ways at different times, I suppose.

Charlotte - I haven't read your other threads, so I'm coming at this with just the information you have included here.

To me it sounds as though your 'D'H (how I hate including the D for these men!!!) is simply not interested in you as an individual. He is only interested in you as a family member, ie his wife and the mother of his children. Anything else is completely inconsequential to him, and (in his eyes) if you truly loved him and were committed to him then they should be inconsequential to you. And that is just so incredibly wrong.

This is why he pressurises you to not spend time on 'me' type activities. Because 'you' are not important, only the 'we' and your supporting of 'him' role is important. In his eyes you're the bit player, he's the star attraction, he's the focus. He gets to decide what to do, not you. Your job is to decide things in his favour, not yours.

My DH ALWAYS thanks me for my food, and says it was lovely, really nice, etc. If he doesn't like it, he comes out with things like. 'Um, where did you find this recipe....? It's not as nice as X, not really that keen on it to be honest', in as kind a way as possible. But it happens soooo rarely! He will NEVER let the DSs leave the table without thanking me for their meal.

I don't think it's coincidental that he wants you to go overseas with him right when others have told him how badly he treats you. Others have given you strength, and he needs to get you somewhere where he is your sole focus again.

I don't know your DC4 story, or anything other than what you've posted here, Charlotte.

I didn't know how to reply to your last post. You seem to be stuck very much in a dithery stage. It can be extremely hard to get your head around the fact that your partner abuses your love, out of choice. I understand how you may feel you can only peep at it between your fingers, then screw your eyes shut and sing lalala.

I understand it, but there's nothing I can do to help you face the facts of your own life. I may be able to explain them but, if you can't hear the explanations, I'm wasting my words. Keep talking and we'll reply. But don't expect anyone to sing lalala for you! I really, really want you to do the Freedom Programme. It's free. If there's a RL course near you, I'd recommend that for the benefits of talking about your relationship with other women, and hearing about theirs. Otherwise you can do it online.

What kind of replies were you seeking with your last post? (One before last, really!)

I don't think it's coincidental that he wants you to go overseas with him right when others have told him how badly he treats you. Others have given you strength, and he needs to get you somewhere where he is your sole focus again.

I agree. It's incredibly important, Charlotte. Do NOT let him prise you away from your support!

Everything else DIY said, too.

You're right that I'm in a dithery stage! Although I'm recognising it now and seeing that the sense of something terribly wrong in the relationship comes and goes - so I'm now considering plans to leave regardless of whether or not I feel I've got the measure of what's going on.

Replies I was seeking with my last post? Had to think hard about that, because I avoided thinking too much about why I posted what I did at the time! The dc4 conception story I originally posted on someone else's thread, and got reactions which said it was scary, awful, abusive, that sort of thing. I wanted to hear that, but didn't fully believe it. To me, there was a sequence of events and they are not as connected as I may have made out. In other words, I'm worried I twisted the story enough to suit my own ends. Because I'm desperate to get out of the marriage, but feel a strong responsibility to stay, or at least to do the right thing. I want to be convinced that it's right to leave. But every time someone says it is, I worry that they don't have the full picture.

So I told the story again, trying to be totally honest and not just hoping for the response LTB. But having posted it, and mulling it over afterwards, I felt ashamed of myself for being so feeble. So it seems in bringing that out into the open, I've become aware of my belief that he isn't really abusive, but it's my shamefully unadult ducking of responsibility etc that gives the impression that he is.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I find myself very hard to understand sometimes! Reading through DIY's post, I did think, "Yes, that much is definitely true - even if nothing else is, I know that is a big problem, and big enough to leave." So maybe the other stuff doesn't matter.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense! I'm not quite sure what my point is!

Yes, it makes sense, Charlotte, and thank you.

I've become aware of my belief that he isn't really abusive - Good! Being aware of denial is crucial to getting rid of it!

my shamefully unadult ducking of responsibility ... gives the impression that he is [abusive] - This is him talking, right? Please promise to stop using words like "shameful" about yourself from now on.

You're underestimating the depth of the damage the abuse has done to you, I feel. Don't worry, you can unravel it later. Just get out of this poisonous situation with determined clarity! Speaking to Women's Aid will help you get your thoughts straight - you don't have to need whisking to a refuge to call them; they do great advice.

I'm very familiar with this business of "owning" an abuser's decisions, opinions, etc, post factum. It creates the illusion of a united family and helps to minimise discord, while maintaining what feels like self-respect.

When we persuade ourselves that someone else's opinion is actually ours, we silence ourselves. We've set up a narrative in which we cannot trust our own thoughts, memories and feelings. Cutting a long story short, I think this is why you feel discombobulated, Charlotte. You have basically told yourself your thoughts are invalid unless they were your husband's first.

Getting out of this trap is an absolute bastard; you've done incredibly well so far! So as not to perpetuate the lies in your head any longer, please start countering any thoughts about yourself like "feeble" or "irresponsible". In fact, start now Give us a few short, honest reasons why you're not shameful, irresponsible or feeble.

In your daily dealings with H, become a secret agent. Make the right noises if they further your aims, but keep your own, real opinion in mind.

I do hope this is helping some, not confusing you further ...

Charlotte, I dont know your story but you have been given excellent advice upthread from lots of people.
I just wanted to chime in to say that I understand the rationalising that you are doing; when you describe an event to an outsider, who describes it as awful/abusive, you get a little rush of insight.
That insight gets drowned later as you 'think' that they dont 'know the whole story'.

That is your psyche minimising what is going on, it's a protective mechanism. If you could see the full extent of how you are being damaged and manipulated, it would be overwhelming to understand that a person who is supposed to love/support/protect you would do this.

If you can find the strength to get out of it, you will be amazed at how quickly you become strong, and how quickly clarity comes to you.

Ok, that sounds a good challenge!

I'm not sure I was repeating H's thoughts there, but my own feelings that I should have stood up to him in the past and didn't. I shouldn't feel ashamed about this, though, I suppose, because I was trying to keep things peaceful, trying to find a resolution where there didn't seem to be one (because he wouldn't give any ground in areas where we disagreed), trying to be the adult because he didn't seem capable of being one and I didn't know that it could be framed in terms of abuse.

And I was feeling ashamed of trying to prolong this conversation without even any clear idea why, like I was being attention-seeking. But another way of looking at it would be that I'm reaching out for help, and what's to be ashamed of in that?

Hey, I feel better! Thanks!

And now I think of it, that accusation of being attention-seeking is definitely something that comes from H. Could I be owning his thoughts so thoroughly that I don't even recognise that they come from him?!

The secret agent thing - I'm trying to do that, but it doesn't come naturally - and I don't really understand why it's necessary. I worry that in keeping secrets like this, I'm not making any progress in assertiveness. I think I'm doing it mainly to avoid facing reality with him: really, I know it's over, but I'm not ready to tell him that. I was going to leave and then tell him (this week, actually!) but then the plans fell through. And then I had a big crisis of confidence, hence this thread!

Fantastic :) Thank you!

This type of abuse only really works on people who are, as you describe there, problem-solvers and peacemakers. You see the best in others; you have inner strength; you're not afraid to question yourself. And controlling people turn all this against you, making the meanest possible use of your love. It makes me angry

Well done on your last paragraph ... and what's wrong with seeking attention anyway? As you rightly say, you are reaching out.

Keep giving yourself the benefit of your positive regard, lovely Charlotte!

Hmm. Well, it's your psyche and up to you how you handle things. I'm concerned about the degree of pressure he's willing to apply when he realises you're thinking thoughts of your own ... with any luck, he won't actually notice until you're gone (!) so fingers crossed.

Being directly assertive with a manipulator can get good results, but it's never going to work long-term. It's best to pick your battles, ime, and I'm sure there'll be plenty ahead. Perhaps my 'secret agent' was a poor choice of words? Does it sit better if you think of it as 'customer service desk'? One of the basic assertive techniques is Fogging - halfway down the page.

A very good use of your assertiveness, meanwhile, is in your thoughts about yourself :)

Oh yes, minimising and denial!

My H would criticise. Not a huge criticism but it still had a sting. And I used to do two things....one was to minimise it and think he didn't really mean it the way it came out, and the other was to dismiss it because it would then mean that he didn't respect me as much as I needed to believe he did.

So he got to continue with his little criticisims because I didn't stand up for myself. Which of course meant that I suppressed my emotional response. And somehow I absolved him of fault because I knew I had allowed it to happen. So it's then hard to use the word "abuse" when my own behaviour had allowed his to continue.

Am finding my way back to me, I hope you do too.

That's really interesting; I've not come across it before. I think I've tried that from time to time, but as the article says, mistaken it for submissiveness. That's very encouraging to think it might be assertiveness! I'll have to read through the whole page at some point. Thank you!

And your last sentence - yes, I have forgotten the power of positive thinking. I guess that I can choose to be my worst critic or my best supporter. I expect approval to come from other people (or at least hope for it), but perhaps it's easier to accept if I approve of myself first?

lovemenot - that's it exactly. So good to hear someone who knows what it's like (especially as you are moving away from it).

I believe my H has strong narcissistic traits too. But the most important thing for me right now is getting back in touch with my own emotions. I've gotten too used to living his very practical, non emotional way of life. I've neglected my own needs and dreams because there was nobody to listen to them.

It's harder than I thought...but I can't make a true and real decision to end this marriage till I own my own feelings.