"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

here here, Badvoc.. I second that or should I say 'third' that! Don't let this time put you off another; they also have their quotas to consider

I have heard the death of others describedin these terms also Wizard - difficult to believe people are SOOO SOOO into themselves, that its more about them than the person dying!

Fi

Told ya! It's a well known scientific fact

Yay third timer too! The best!

Fi it really beggars belief. Although I feel like I shouldn't expect anything less from her.

Attila they live in a desired area, so I am keeping my fingers firmly crossed that it takes ages to sell but they are sought after houses due to school catchment

Well, despite me saying I wouldn't ask again, I text her and asked for the second time how she was. She has ignored me again, but when dd text her (prior to my second text) she replied to her! I feel like screaming, these mind games blighted my childhood and still affect me now. Sick sick sick.

Oh patches you have texted and showed concern, I think thats really all you can do, once should be enough, but twice shows you want to make sure its got there, in case first was mislaid etc. You can't do any more. Its a horrible thing to accept, being ignored. It reinforces how painful it was to be ignored as a child, next time send you text if you feel you really need to, but then don't expect any response and leave her to her bloody-mindedness and misery! She's wanting to punish you and its working, get on with your own good things and ignore it. take care xx

it's ridiculous how childish she's being, and all for the sake of feeling a tiny bit of power of you. Well patches, at least you can now with clear conscience go about your daily life and not send any further enquiries. Also, I'd take this all as evidence that she is feeling much better.

Well she finally replied, saying she'd been asleep (and yet she had replied to dd during that time), said she was still very sick, and was too weak to care whether they took her back into hospital or not. Last week she was threatening suicide if they tried! When I tried asking her about what was wrong exactly (virus? Gallstones? ) she said she was going to sleep...in other words 'conversation is over'.

Give it up Patches, you can do no more. You're now iin danger of banging your own head against the same old wall.

That would then make it kind of your fault you get hurt...

My therapist once told me 'Wtf did you expect?'

I was aghast! But she was right!

'WTF did you expect? She's always bailed on you, so why are you so bloody shocked that she's done what she always does?' 'More fool you!'

That day was Tough Love Therapy Day that day apparently...

.. So forgive any bluntness... :)

Bluntness and honesty is always appreciated hissy, and to be honest I am starting to become numb to the whole thing. I can't go to see her, my dc are both in the middle of exams...one is doing gcse's and the other a levels. I wasn't wanted when I wanted to go down so I'm not going to disrupt the DC lives for that bs. I don't live local to her, it's a80 mile round trip. And I won't sit there and listen to her threats of suicide...I had all that with my narc ex h.
I will sleep with a clear conscience, I can do no more.

I had my father call me the other day to find out "What we could do to resolve this crap and get the family back together" I told him it's not that simple and took him out for a coffee to talk yesterday. He was worried someone might've seen us together and reported back to mum. In his words, she is making life miserable for everyone at home, is utterly consumed with the fact that I am not engaging with her bullshit, and is terribly sad, refusing to get over it and act like an adult. I told him I'm not sitting down and having a discussion with her. There's no point in trying to have a rational conversation with someone who is irrational. Even if Dad was there to act as a mediator, she would just blow up if he was seen to be anything other than 100% "on her side". I asked him didn't he see how ridiculous is was that she was so obsessed with everyone "being on her side" and that everyone had to acquiesce to her or endure her being an insufferable bitch?

ArseB, you see this is what annoys me! You are NOT the person he should be speaking with.

I wasn't the person my mum or her H shoud have come to talk at.

We didn't do this on a whim. The only person that could sort this out is your mother.

You've chosen NOT to have people treat you like crap. Your mother could choose not to treat everyone like crap.

Tell your dad and any other poor bugger in her toxic cloud of shite that you made a decision not to be insulted/criticised/disrespected/manipulated/abused, and that they ALL can decide to do the same, for themselves.

No going back ArseBandit, not unless you get a full apology, she takes responsibility, and never does it again.

Porker squadron, cleared for take-off

LOL Happy precisely! Mum doesn't do apologies. Only non apologies- :"Sorry I'm not the sort of mother that you want", "Sorry I'm not worthy of being in your life" "Sorry for whatever I'm supposed to have done". My dad just seems defeated. Speaking to my cousins etc it seems they all think she's losing touch more than just a bit. But it's always everyone else's fault. She doesn't have a lot of self awareness; only self-pity. I told dad that the last time she came here, if she was really wanting to sort things out and not just expect an apology from me, then she might've started with, "You're obviously upset with me and I want to try to understand why and see what I can do make it up to you." Instead she stood at my front door with a cats-arse face, arms folded and blurted out "Well, I just wanted to tell you in person that your father and I are no longer, and our family is no longer." -her and dad have NOT split up by the way. I think she just likes having drama. An adult can accept that sometimes not everyone likes them, but to be so consumed and obsessed by it and not even attempt to rectify the problem and instead just try to drag everyone else into it is just immature. Makes me wonder what happened to her when she was young to have stunted her emotional maturity at about 15yo.

Your dad sounds like my FIL arsebandit (great name btw) :) Sadly your mother sounds like my MIL, too...

He occasionally meets up with DH on the pretence of mediation but it always comes out that he has been sent by MIL. DH kind of wishes they could meet up (even in secret) because he misses him, but FIL will not do anything that MIL hasn't sanctioned. This doesn't stop him of course asking DH to exclude me from things, because that's 'not the same' .

Are you sure your mother hasn't put him up to these visits? Sorry if that's a difficult question but its quite unusual ime for enablers to do anything against the narc's wishes. Be careful, if that's not too dramatic.

And I second everything happynewhissy said. Naturally :)

Arsebandit- much like my mil everyone circles around her and does as she says, almost like a matriach & because i won't allow her behaviour she tells however many people she can, that she is hard done by and "what did i do wrong" arrrrggghh...
Condering she has slagged me off to half the family and did not give me a christmas card or a gift i found it rather odd yesterday when dh got a text saying that mil had bought me a card & gift for my birthday and if i want it, its at her house, i'm guessing this is another bargaining tool for me to allow contact between i & dc!-well i'm not falling for it & tbh i'm not very partial to ill gotten gifts.

Thanks ladies- no, forgetmenots Mum had no idea dad was meeting up with me-that's why he was worried someone might have seen him with me lol. My mother does that too with presents. She had a bday present for DH and instead of organise to come out and visit (months back), she was like, "Oh sorry we missed DHs bday the other week, my life has been so busy blah blah blah, you guys should come over here for tea and to get his present." Always chasing after her!

Sod that.

Anything I, or DH accept from my Mother has a very hefty price to pay and I am beginning to doubt whether my sanity can take it.

My mum does that with presents too

Pressed send by mistake.

Why do they do this? Will we ever know or is it best not to wonder?

ArseB everything you say resonates with me x

Aaarrgghh...the presents thing...YES! I get that too. And there is always such a f*king drama over it too. I get the phone call...'what shall I get such and such for their birthday?'...I reply 'I don't know, I'm struggling myself this year'...and then I'm hounded every day. I feel like screaming 'use your own f*king imagination, I have to'. And then if I don't supply her with a specific idea, AND reserve it online at Argos for her, then it'll be a tenner in a card with a sigh and 'well no one told me what to get'. It's all so easy for her...I'm surprised she doesn't ask me to go pay for it, pick it up and wrap it for her too.
Or...I will mention something which I really really want to buy for one of the kids and she will then buy it and tell me afterwards, and make out like it was her idea!!!

And then of course it's 'well I have no way of getting the gift to you, you'll have to come and get it'...an 80 mile round trip after which my nerves will be shattered completely.