"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Fairy I learnt from a thread in childbirth on MN that mothers release happy hormones at the end of their pregnancy, which triggers off labour. The idea is its mother natures way of stopping you from going into labour in an unsafe or threatening environment. With this knowledge and my mother, it is no wonder that I ended up having to be induced with all my children previously. Just blanking family completely now, at least until after baby is born (I'm 39 weeks).

and I can totally believe it. I'm thinking of you getting close and will continue to send you happiness and light Collect your smiles and happinesses and use them as a barrier against the family, whatever their [low down] tactics

s all the way... xxxx

Thankyou Fairy

Feel prerty low at the moment. 5 days in to nc with father. I knew he was picking ds up for cinema tonight. I meant to watch for him to send ds out. Must have got doing something and forgot. Out of the blue he opens kitchen door and bellows " come on ds, i'm waiting" slams door and goes back to the car. I'm glad he didn't attempt to speak to me but feel so sad it's come to this

oh dear tiggy it doesn't stay this hard. You are right at the start. It horrible ain't it He can't just knock on the door I suppose that might be asking way way too much seeing as whats happened so recently. Oh well. Maybe one thing to take from it is that he's not stepped in but at least respected (?) your space in that sense and gone back outside? take care xx

That must be really hard tiggy with him still having regular contact with your ds.

That must be hard Tiggy

Maybe you could try in a while to set some 'ground rules'? Pie in the sky, I know. I do think you're being very accommodating, still letting your F pick DS up from your house, I don't know that I would be happy about that when the time comes.

Thanks again for your support guys. We're taking it one day at a time but i feel stronger each day.

So far, so good or so I thought......dh is off round mil to help move a fridge.
He's back doing favours for them & he seems to think he will get the dcs Xmas/bdaygifts when he goes over and is apparently going over purely for this reason.
I have a strong feeling he will be very disappointed as if they give them up, there's no bargaining tool for them to use anymore!

And I don't want the gifts for the dc as they mean nothing iyswim.
Will keep you posted on what happens and what mood he comes home in, will as usual leave a lot to be desired.

Most normal people sort fridges and the like themselves, but not this lazy bunch, wonder how long it is before he resorts to weekendly visits like 2011 where he did diy for them every weekend leaving me with 4dc to look after and our own house in state so his parents could wind him up and guilt trip him into doing more stuff for them. One time he said no to their requests, mil belated on about how fil May have a heartattack , the man has never had one!

Hi,

Am coming on here for a bit of support over the next few weeks. I walked out of my mum's house yesterday after she started having yet another dig at me. She's totally toxic.

I feel guilty already. Its her 70th birtday in a few months and I was meant to be taking her out for afternoon tea at the Ritz but I really want to cut all contact for ever.

Part of me things at her age would it not just be better to keep the peace. But realisticly she could carry on making my life a misery for the next 20 years. I don't care if she cuts me out of her will (like she's always threatening to do), really not worth it.

Hi. I have been lurking for ever thinking I must join at some point.

Here I am.

There are too many problems on both maternal / paternal family to get into, but thought I would focus on my mum.

I love her. She is a martyr. I am her enabler. She had a horrible childhood, poverty, bad parents, beatings at school, married unhappily, my dad was an alcoholic, left us, killed himself, no support from her family.

She did it all alone, with me. I love her. BUt I am certain our relationship is it a healthy one. This is all muddled. Not sure where to start. I have two DDs and a DS and I notice that I play martyr when they USB my boundaries.

On one part, I am my DM's mother. Sooner than any other kid could, I decided about my schooling, home appliances purchases, discussed her work, family and boyfriends, etc. growing up, I organised things for her. When I moved away, I sorted all connections, trains, times, picked her up. I got her to change her car when the old one was unsafe. i negotiated her car discount with the salesman. i was 22 i think then. My DH says I still mother her and it annoys him. Se is only 21 older than me and 14 years older than him. He thinks she could do anything.

On another part, I am hurt. When I was a child, and still now at times (iy is just too too hard), she would threaten to kill herself when she was finding living hard. My dad killed himself. I was seven. My mum's threats were hard to bear. I used to tell her in no uncertain terms that she could not. I was 8 at most.
I organised my entire wedding, in my hometown where she lives, i was abroad, as she told me that just the thought of it was too stressful. I had to look through shops for here bag and shoes for her as finding her dress had left her exhausted. I had to dress her the morning of my wedding. Se was too stressed to dress herself.

She told me as I was getting things ready, and this still hurts seven years on, that I did not understand how much she had suffered in her life. She had spoken to a friend of hers, who is a retired psychotherapist, and he was the one who said this. He apparently offered for him to see me to explain to me how much my mum had suffered and that I must understand better. I said I would see him anytime of his choosing. I am still waiting. But boy I KNOW she had a hard time. Her parents are my GPs and they were nuts. Their kids are dysfunctional if not downright dangerous. My uncle, her brother, is a pedophile for example. No idea is he abused me. No memories.

Not sure where I am going there. It is quite cathartic to write this down.

Frequent your mum sounds very like mine in many ways..I think my mum is a narc or at least has quite a lot of narc traits and is a hypochondriac and a martyr victim extraordinaire. A lot of your post rings bells.
Viva I read your other threat and think you should at the very least go low contact, she sounds awful. I noticed your thing about the Ritz (I remember your thread about the idea of doing it). Do you feel you're always trying to think of things to do to "cheer her up" or make her happy? I was like that with mine and it was os tiring and she was never grateful. I have a whole thread full of my story with my mum, but I'll be back later to link it and muse some more.

Goodtobetter - thank you. How not to become the same? And also, I tend to vent to my DH, and I turn I think I am creating an image of my DM that is incorrect, all flaws, no qualities, because I do not need his support to enjoy her qualities.

I read part of your thread and the physical aspect rang a bell with me. I always try and carry my mum's case, etc. and in a way I am 'fragilising' her. She could do lots but somehow opts out and I enable her. She does not drive much for example, too exhausting. She is not even 60 years old.

You should read them both www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1565077-My-mother-hates-my-husband-long
and
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1662178-The-Great-Escape
as it's amazing how housebound, almost sofa bound she'd become and now that we've moved out...lo and behold she can drive, shop, clean, take out the rubbish, garden, come with us to the park. It had become her script "woe is me" because it made her the centre of everything, but then she'd rage that she had no life, was miserable. Moaning (about everything became like a hobby)

How not to become the same? Well, I think awareness is a good start. DM really really CANNOT see what she is like...she can't take the victim goggles off long enough.

welcome ladies. sorry for your tales, and well done for airing :) i think it is cathartic and does help to read others and their strategies.

I think the difference is to have to suffer the abuses too. For instance, my parents stayed together despite the abuses raining down on us. NarcM cannot expect her children to become her mother. Some things are ok some are not. Punishing you for making your choices I would walk away, disrespecting you and then expending all their energies slagging you off to others in the family, or friends that will listen to all the blaming, is not on. these are the things that I think would never stop in my circumstance, which mean we will just always fall out she will hate me and cause a row, and tell the world how awful I am because I happen to disagree with her, or want to say no to a request to not be her slave and expected to not have a life when it comes to her.

I would have been happy to help them out with stuff where I could, but the relationship only worked if was towing the line (which meant putting their lives over time and taking abuse if I didn't).

I thought she would have a nervous breakdown if I walked, but I had to save myself from similar! and a new baby that was very ill to cope with.

I am so sorry for you to have lost your dad this way so young and then have to listen to your mother threatening the same all her life.

Sadly, I imagining that perhaps your mother is complaing to her psychologist that you are just not doing enough for her, but he is not understanding the abuse she has subjected you to. You seeing him is a conflict of interest in that sense, as the lsat thing you need is to have to convince someone else (that treats your mother) of the abuses you have had to suffer, instead of her giving you the childhood you deserved and her taking responsibility for her sufferings to other adults to get help with. It doesn't sound as though she is changing anything in respect to her treatment of you frequent.

which meant putting their lives over time mine and taking abuse if I didn't

Thank you both. I will read on after the DCs are in bed.

Time to go building memories in the play park.

GoodToBetter - I think I try and not see her too often at present. So then I feel guilty about not seeing her more often and yes I try to make the days I see her nice. Saying why don't we do xyz, which normally involves trailing round gardens, garden centres, stately homes (ha ha) or other stuff which I find dull. But I do it to try and make her happy. If I suggested doing something I like doing she would moan no end and its not worth it.

Someone up thread told me something very powerful that has completely changed my whole attitude to my narc parents & is now my mantra - "Fear, Obligation, Guilt" - I have overcome all 3 & have been freed by this. I don't give a stuff what they think about me or my life anymore, I am not obligated to them - they are not my responsibility & I don't feel guilty about it!! Bliss!!

I wonder if a live in mediator would be the only answer!

just thought of you Nar some for you, in case you are lurking, but hoping you might just be enjoying a smiley weekend.

Omg, have just rang my brother.

My mum got there first though! Rang him yesterday telling him she had politely said I might need to help dd brush her hair and I stormed out. Db said he knew there would be more to it than that. But I'm sure she believes her little sanitised version of events, she really is bonkers.

She's then slagged me off to my Db telling him I neglect dd and don't spend enough time with her as I'm on the computer too much. I only watch tv one programme a week so tend to use the Internet more than most people. But I do it in lieu of tv. I pointed out to Db I spend plenty of time with dd - he lives some distance away so has o idea.

He said that mum has said to him that dd has told her I don't spend enough time with her. But what she didn't tell Db is that its always my mum who brings the subject up, not dd. so mum will say "do you wish your mum spent more time playing games with you". Dd will say yes. I'm sure there are times when I'm working, doing housework, etc when dd wishes I could play with her. But that's life for every kid.

Db actually said himself that mum never played with us when we were kids. So I know that dd is neglected a lot less than I was!

Oh and she's also told Db that she thinks dd is self harming which is a load of bollocks. Db knew it was bollocks and told her not to say stuff like that.

viva at the comment of self-harming. Someone likes drama.
I am glad your Db speaks openly to you.

It gets worse. DD has told me tonight that my mum told her that if I'm ever to busy to play with her then she should threaten me with social services. Then if I still don't play with her dd apparantly should actually ring social services.

DD told me not to worry as she wouldn't actually do it. I had to tell dd that I don't honestly think social services would give a shit!

What sort of mother tells their grandchild to blackmail their mother in such a manner! I know my mum and she wouldn't have been joking.

DB said something interesting today, that mum recently said to him that she knows she wasn't a good mum to us when we were growing up.

I have to say she had a fairly dysfunctional childhood. My gran wasn't wanted by her mother. So my greatgran kept all her other kids but gave my gran to my greatgreat grandmother who ignored my gran by the sounds of it. So my gran had no parenting skills and brought my mum up badly. So my mum never had a positive parenting role model. Its all quite sad really.