"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

I've NC'd mine, so I have no moral tussle about what to do on Bday's / Christmas / mother's day.

Mind you, now I have the moral tussle about whether or not I should maintain NC instead!

It's just a given that if you have an inadequate parent, there is no ideal relationship outcome. We just have to muddle through with what seems to work best for us.

Thankyou Hotdamn I am going to follow your advice. It makes so much sense when I read other peoples advice and seems so obvious. yet somehow I am unable to think of it myself. I know I am guilty of allowing my family to manipulate me through guilt, which just annoys me more.

NAR after the way they treated you, you do not need to explain. Just say "No you can't visit"!!

It's very freeing not to care anymore!! No more dilemmas, no more expectations, no more guilt!!

Feeling better today, been sorting dds toys ( again! They have sooooo much!) waiting on a storage unit for and then her play area will be tidy!

I've just realised that you know what, dsis and dms behaviour is not e reflection on me, I don't have to prove myself to anyone. I suddenly feel very much at peace with myself, if that makes sense. I'll never be like them, callous calculating and using, wrapped up in themselves. Part of me pities them.

Had to laugh when Dgm told me on the phone that I was potty trained by 18 months, day and night. Ha, I wonder bloody how my mother did that, a series of beatings like my brother?

Nar as midwife says, just say no, I doubt they will even push for an explanation as they don't like hearing anything bad about themselves and will know this deep down. i Started doing this and was rather pleased with the results, dm dsis and Dgm find different angles now, such as phoning dh on his direct line. However he is well versed and upholds the less is more and oh it's a shame but the answer is no ad infinitim.

Midwife I've just been musing in the same thing, it's terrific isn't it. Feel like I'm drunk on freedom or something corny like that! Lol! I can't get over how different my life is.
Well it's mostly the same but no drama, phone calls, worrying about what they would say. The snipes. Ahhhhhhhhh. No hearing about y mothers fucking 1st class degree she's never used and how thick am. No hearing about immigrants.( Nigerians specifically. Don't actually think dm knows anyone from Nigeria but hey ho ) no more petty racism disablism scapegoating.

All round I'm feeling generous today!

It's my DD's 9th birthday today - I've had weepy voicemails from my mother saying "we'll just leave a little something for her on the doorstep - sob sob" & a text from my father saying "we want to see you to talk about the past & see the girls". I ignored for a few days & DD was asking if she would see them around her birthday. So I sent my father a text saying, DD wants to see you so you can pop in Saturday morning if you like, but I don't want to talk about anything tricky or have any drama". The reply, "actually we're both too ill to visit at the moment". A year ago I would have had some feelings about it, now I think - oh - really? Next! Back to NC it is then!

My DS is getting married in a month's time. I am absolutely dreading it. I will be stuck in a room with my mother, DVExP, his new wife (the only female partner he has never hit) and my vile SiL. I actually feel sick when I think about it all.

DS has put me, DH and DS2 on the same table as DB, 2xDN and SiL, so hours of being stuck with a woman who feels it's fine to make nasty comments to me about how useless I am, talk to DH like he's mentally subnormal and completely ignore DS. UGH! The only upside to that is that it will probably be the very last time in my life that I will ever have to see her again. I will miss not seeing DB, but that's his decision, I will not let someone random like her talk to me like that.

My mother will no doubt get drunk and regale the whole room with stories of how awful I am, what a terrible person I am, that I am mad, evil and have never done anything with my life. She does this at EVERY family thing that isn't about her.

I don't want to go, it's awful, I am a terrible mother, but I just don't want to go. This will however feed into the whole..'she was never there for the boys' part of my mother's litany. So I have to go, if for nothing else, to make my son happy. I have discovered this week that my mother has always lied to me about my DF's military record. She made him out to be a coward, when he actually did what he was asked to do.

How do people just conquer their fears and do these things? How do I go and not want to curl up in a ball and pretend I'm not there, like I did at DS1's passing out parade? I feel so pathetic, like I am still 6 years old, on my way back from school, knowing that my mother will stand me up in front of her friends and tell them all about how I wet the bed again, and what a disappointment I am.

Random suggestion from occasional lurker - Capt, any chance you can ask your son to change the seating arrangement? That sounds like a horrible evening.

Oh, and you're not a terrible mother for dreading it! Can't imagine what bizarre kind of masochist would look forward to such an experience!

There are 3 families involved. My Son has arranged the seating so that none of the people from any of the families who don't get on have to sit together, iyswim? My Sil feels that my Dil's family is beneath her and makes even more vile comments about them, I am felt to be someone who can control or at least soak up her worst excesses. Ugh! Maybe I'll just get valium, or ebola to get out of it.

Capt, I thought most weddings saw the Groom's DM sitting next to the Bride's DF, and vice versa at the top table? Maybe I am out of touch on that nowadays.

But I would have a quiet word with your DS if at all possible, to see if you can sit somewhere that you would enjoy the day as much as possible without disrupting the bride and groom.

Sorry, I got into a pickle with my login etc but wanted to clear up confusion I seem to have made earlier. It's my Gran who died (my mum is her eldest, with 2 other siblings), and Gran named those 3, DH and I in the will (and only those 5). The "kids" I mentioned are me and my siblings (all aged 20s+).

It's complicated, even in my head. Writing it makes it sound grasping (I've tried - got nowhere). But I am trying to ignore it all and not get sucked into whatever mind games Mum is playing (and I just KNOW it will be about some kind of mind games aimed at me).

Going back under my rock to hibernate a bit more.....

Biddy I could be wrong, but I though that you couldn't be an executor of a will if you were a beneficiary as well? Might it be an idea to call the solicitor involved and ask to see a copy of it or at least to find out the major points of it all?

Traditional weddings do have that seating arrangement, but ExP DW declared that SHE should sit where the groom's mother sits and that only HER children should be ushers etc, so DS has done this to try and keep the peace as much as possible. Poor boy, I think from when we spoke last, he would rather have eloped!

I don't envy you Capt...family occasions are a nightmare when there are dysfunctional relatives involved. Pair of shorts and barefoot on a beach is the way to go I think!

Well, I had a text from Dsis who asked me to try and track down a parcel she sent from oz to uk for xmas (it also had my birthday present in it), with gifts for mother and also myself. I traced it on Royal Mail's site, and it says that it is on it's way back to Oz as the recipient (my mother) didn't collect it. She will say, of course, that it never arrived (not the first time this has happened) but it makes you wonder doesn't it?

And as always, any contact (or thoughts of, or displays of toxic behaviour by my mother) sends me spiralling down. I was in a good mood today, and now I feel like crap again, just want to crawl under my duvet and hide. I suddenly feel like I have lead weights attached to my legs and arms and head, and like I'm wading through treacle. Aaaarrgghhhhhhhh.....

I ws going to suggest getting a copy from the solicitor, defo not to be trusted. Executors can be beneficiaries tho as far as I am aware. I know recently that the three children (very grown up!) of recently passed father were all executors to share the burden of executing the will and arrangements, but they inherited all of his estate between them. I could have misheard that tho.

I haven't been able to read through everything I'm only up cos my windown developed one of those excrutiatingly annoying rattles in the winds last night, which kept me awake and I forgot about it. I came to bed early and forgot about the rattle (and didn't notice i t) until I settled down to sleep, then lay for over 1 hr trying to, ha haha, make it go away, whilst not moving (sometimes I do wonder at myself) so I got so cross in the end[as now I only have 5 hours sleep left], I had to get up and find something thick enough me to shove in the gap. So its just stopped and i grabbed my laptop roughly grrrring to try to do something useful, till sleep overtakes.

midwife how shit of them again, I do hope DD can have lovely 9th birthday.

and what a nightmare of wedding table plans, I know they always are! but this is something else.... how appalling DW is taking the place of you! (if I have that right).

I am not planning on asking the solicitor to see a copy, as it is also my parents solicitor. But I will go to the probate office at some point in the next couple of months (I know it is going to probate in the next week or so) and get a copy from there - there's no point in riling my mother by letting her know I want to see the will. If I get a copy as part of the whole winding up process, that's fine and I can pretend I never saw it - but I don't want to draw down the wrath of my mother (and probably my father too, for "not trusting your mother") unnecessarily.

CaptChaos, oh dear, that does sound complicated and tricky for your DS. And well done for not causing too much grief for him with ExPDW's drama. (Taking your rightful place - I presume all attending won't think she's MOTG?) But I think if it is still a few weeks off, you could gently ask that you get some consideration in where you are put sitting so that you can enjoy the day too.

MW, I hope your DD had a nice birthday, and you were able to put your DPs behind you as well for it.

Fi, windows rattling are so annoying - I hope you got some sleep afterwards.

Patches - can your DSis send such parcels to you in future, and you forward the necessary contents to your DM rather than the other way around? I know I saw various parcels going to Oz from here over Christmas and they were costing a blinkin' FORTUNE so having to re-send is not great for your DSis. And at least you and DSis both KNOW the truth now, whether you want to call your DM on it or not when it comes up - but you can both stand up for the fact that it was sent.

Biddy yes, I am going to say to her to send things to me in future, although ideally she would send mine to me and Mother's to her, that way I don't have to contact her over it...I would then be obliged expected to do an 80 mile round trip to deliver hers, and believe me, I take to the bottle after a visit to or from my M!

I gave my brother the benefit of the doubt, and thought maybe he had just deleted facebook totally rather than just me...(why di I always look for the good in people???) but no...his son's page came up on my 'people you may know' page, and in looking at his FB I noticed that my brother is still on there, so he DID delete me off his. I don't know why, but that really hurt?

Oh well, onwards and upwards.

Fi there is nothing worse than a rattling window when you are trying to sleep, and the more you try and ignore it the louder it gets. Hope you got some sleep in the end. I had to go and see my GP 2 days ago about my raging insomnia, and practically had to beg on bended knee for sleeping tablets. I took one last night and the night before and oh....the bliss of sleeping all night! I've had them before so know I am ok taking them and won't become addicted but it's just heavenly.

Hungry I have to listen to racist remarks from my M too...it makes me cringe, especially when she does it in public. I think I mentioned on here before I was out shopping with he last year, and we were in Primarni and this muslin woman was extremely rude to me, pushed me out of the way. Now I was annoyed, but would have been regardless of age, religion, colour or sex...but my M, at the top of her voice, shouted 'feckin' moosies, shouldn't be in this fecking country anyway, wish they'd all feck off back to their own countries, they give me the creeps' and similar disgusting comments. Everyone stopped and stared. I was mortified. It should be noted that these are neither my words, nor my sentiments...I hope I haven't offended anyone but was just illustrating a point.

I am SO glad I am nothing like her.

oh yes, much more sensible to do it by stealth by going to the probate, here here, I could see how that could be trickky going to 'her' solicitor!!

yes, spot on, the rattling gets louder! so true! thanks, I got about 5 hrs I think.... Now eyes on stalks, after also going through emotional time at a EA session. Next, steel myself for the evening trials with DDs current angsts and worries which came to a head yesterday and may have been raised at school today. Mu ch much earlier bed tonight in case of any more window rattling, I;ll be ready!

My father use to do the racist remarks too Patches so mortifying, and it always does seem to hurt doesn't it. I recently found out that my NC parents moved away from the area, a friend of a friiend that I bumped into told me - I was quite taken aback as I hadn't really known how to react, and so was he, as it was obvious to him that I didn't know this, always something huh!

mantra.. I'm not like them! xxx Fi

i just wanted to share, that things have changed hugely for me!

I have literally lived in fear of my parents all my life. Lst night I dreamt I actually spoke to my male dominator, bully, aggressor who calls himself a father (in my dreams he was always just a dark threatening presence, I've never seen him before, and could certainly never speak, scream, run-paralysed). In my dream he started being aggressi ve and somehow I spoke and told him he didn't scare me anymore and if he just tried to touch me once more I'd call the police on him, handing me 'vanish' of all things, instead of the drink that I was expecting, as they were lavishly buying everyone drinks, but I got something I didn't like, as per (ha ha ! Vanish, now I see!). I threw it on the floor and manged to also speak to her pulling her up short about missing the mark time and time again and putting zero effort into protecting us or giving a shit atall!

This was huge for me! Never been able to speak before,etc. and to 'feel' in that position for the first time ever wow! I didnt feel angry or worried about the effecct, just realised they were out of order let them know that.

I think I'm starting to get on with my life (but not making promises yet!).

Feeling so happy with this sense of a shift maybe, and wishing you all a day free of narcs and aggressors! (Hallmark are missing out on this, which should be a regular event to celebrate or wish for others!) xxx

Fi that must feel so empowering, and will hopefully carry on into RL situations! Well done, something must definitely be shifting in your psyche x

Patches my brother deleted me on fb as well. And now won't speak to me on skype even though he knows i was hoping he'd skype me a pic of his son who just been born. He lives in Russia so has now effectively cut himself off from me all together. Sadly he is very close with my father and has obviously listened to all the lies. It is upsetting. But i just friend requested him again. He hasn't added me but now it's down to him and not my fault. You have to think that although you try to be friends with them, it's not your fault if it's not reciprocated. You've done your best.

Congratulations Fairy

Now not answering my phone to my mother or any unknown numbers, as she has phoned several times from her friends mobiles, so I won't recongnise the number and will answer it. She kindly decided to leave a long answer phone message yesterday about all the people whos babies have died at or around full term and during labour. How thoughtful, thanks!

sharp groan Nar at that crazy shit!!! Because of my FW ExP I screeen all calls anyway so my friends all know to speak and I will answer! (unless i really am out of course) - they just wail into the answerphone ... hello... Fi... hello... its me.. r u there? by then I usually am (or not!

Keep ignoring all you can, can you screen calls in a similar way (letting your buddies in on it, or does noone know? You could always make up a reason of approaching due date, or summat?) She is disgusting and despicable. Tell her how many beautiful gorgeous healthy babies are born every [how many?] seconds.

You enjoy your remaining days/weeks revelling in your proudly pregnant belly and soon to be baby in your arms - much love and support for that xxx

yes, thank you Patches we'll see... but keeping fingers crossed this is marking a significant shift in me (but I do feel a bit excited!).

and you too have done your best tiggy sorry to hear of NC enforced by your bro.