"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Hi photo lady - you poor thing - the hormones of pregnancy plus having to deal with her! I don't think you can gently or gracefully decline her visit. You have to be assertive, strong & tell her why YOU FORBID her to visit. The last month of your pregnancy you will be very vulnerable & tired. When your baby comes you & DH need to cocoon yourselves in your love nest without any interference as again your hormones will be all over the place. Tell her YOU will tell her after the baby is born when you will be ready for a visit but it will be quite a few weeks afterwards & you won't be able to put them up - they'll need to stay in a hotel - because you will be up in the night feeding the baby. Please don't let her spoil this special time by manipulating you & turning the spotlight on herself.

Congratulations on your pregancy and welcome to the group photographer.

You need to be completely alone with your newborn and the baby's father (if you are together, or a close friend of your choosing if not).

This really is about you now. she needs to be locked out completely. This is your family not hers and the further your pregnancy progresses the more you may automatically feel a need for that distance, but just to be aware, it is the time they try the hardest to barge in, and will try many devious and dirty ways trix to become a major in your life even if not there, or actually be a bigger event than the baby. (my narcM even sent my male sibling round to try to get in to discover whether I'd had the baby yet - he was rejected!) - she has her messengers and spies secret agents so be ware

Set your plans in place now for what you want and need, so nothing jeopardises your pregancy and birth, early days bonding together.

Stressed pregnant ladies or new mums does not bode well for anyone. Take care of you, and recognise how important it is to set your boundary and expect it to be respected. You can tell the world this is your plan, and they will have to accept it, which they will happily; then she cannot go around bemoaning how awful her daughter is! pah!

My NarcM told me she didn't want anything to do with knowing about, or being around the birth [just tell me when its 'all over']. I was hugely upset about her reaction to it (this was here reaction to my announcing my pregnancy), but accepted it anyway (I hadn't even thought about whether I would want her to be around or in what capacity, just shocked at her statement!) Later on in the pregnancy (this was also my first pregnancy), she said she would actually want to be there, and kicked up merry hell and got very nasty when I said, I just didn't know 'who' I wanted there apart from P at the time.

I had some very wise words gifted me as I was setting my birthing plans in place, and that was to keep everyone out, that the birth was about this new family starting and bonding together. Even more important because I was at home (so to ignore the door and phone ringing).

I am sure you will receive lots of wise words from other ladies on here and keeping coming in for support. xx

ha ha midwife!

photographer strike through my post which x with midwife and nodding to her much better put words. xx

many here have experienced awful crazy NarcM behaviour around what should have been sacrasanct new baby time. here here.. forbid, yes.

Everybody respects your requests except narcM's

And be prepared, photographer lady, to tell your mum when she arrives on your doorstep, that you do not have room, you have said she can't stay, and here is the no. of a hotel you can stay in on way back to airport. Then close the door and ignore (or if feeling generous, bring to hotel WITH YOUR DH, and have a cup of coffee before leaving her to book room and return flt for herself - and tell your Dad the same thing).

In fact. make sure you have told your dad beforehand that she cannot come and stay with you around the time of the birth. And that he knows no's of a few local hotels if they want to come visit.

Had a really good day today. Small steps but positive ones. I went to the gardening centre. where i normally would get my dad a little plant or a pressie, i walked away and thought "No, you don't deserve it". This is a positive step for me as i am always trying to make my dad happy and like me, by bringing little gifts etc. for him which are not appreciated, and his behaviour doesn't change. I also home school, and my mum struggles to understand this. She can be aggressive when asking what i've taught my son and i am often scared to tell her what we've actually done. I will lie to avoid arguments, but this means when she asks my son, i have to get him to lie as well to keep her happy. I don't like doing this. So today when she asked, I told her we didn't do any 'lessons' today but went to a playpark and discussed gravity and g force whilst on the roundabout. Her face was a picture! i just told her not to ask again. That i have it under control. I am sick of being scared of my parents and trying to appease them and make them happy. Small steps today, but in the right direction.

Well done Tiggy. You owe your parents nothing. Not plants, not explanations about how you choose to raise your DC.

You owe them nothing but acceptance of the fact that they behave as they choose to behave. And you in turn can choose to remove yourself from that behaviour.

I had a bit of an insight on another thread in relationships as to how future narc DMs/MILs develop. 2 women, recently divorced, were discussing how when their young DCs grow up they couldn't stand by & do nothing if they chose a partner they didn't like, how they'd have to be fully involved & "stick up for" their DCs!! I shuddered reading that!!

Here's something I'm puzzling over at the moment, and would like your views:

If I choose to maintain NC with my parents on the basis that they bring nothing positive to my life, am I being the same as your average narcissist who only sees people in terms of what they (the narcissists) can get out of them?

Riddle me this.

I just wanted to give you all hope that it does get easier as time passes (well you switch off from the pain more).

Just abrief overview of some of my childhood;
My dad used to regularly hit me for making too much noise or being in the way. On one occassion he slammed my arm (repeatedly) in the toilet door, in front of all my mates, because I had 'slammed' the door open. Wierdly enough I remember the embarrisment of my friends witnessing it, as far worse than the pain. I was a teenager at the time.
When I was pregnant with my first child my dad kicked my legs out from under me, whilst I was walking down the stairs. He claimed it was just a joke and I should go if I couldn't take it, when I cried from the pain. Later turned out I had a broken back and two ruptured discs, but my parents still deny that it was my dads fault.
My mum babysat my children whilst I went to a friends funeral (many years ago) and actually disappeared with them for three days. I was later visited by social services because my mother had reported them as abandoned by me and was trying to gain custurdy and grounds I couldn't cope.
My parents invited themselves for Christmas when I refused to go to them and woke my children in the early hours and took them downstairs and opened all their presents. When I woke up and complained she said I was always ungrateful and she was trying to treat me to a lay in.
When I had my first child she lied her way onto the delivery ward and went from room to room to find me because she wanted to be at the birth and I had refused. Luckily the midwife called security who through her out.
When I had my third child she visited the hospital and actually tried to leave with him claiming she was trying to give me a rest. Again the midwifes called security who stopped her.

Because of all the above and more I now have as little to do with my parents as possible. What I find the hardest to accept though is when I look back I realise how many people knew the awful things that were happening, yet stood back and allowed it to continue. Extended family members even comment about what a nasty ungrateful brat I am to this day. I'm sure they must all know the truth but seem to believe whatever my parents tell them.

Like many others have said I didn't realise how bad my parents were until my own children reached each age I have strong memories of horrible events. I was advised to simply cut them out of my life. I haven't managed this completely because it would mean cutting ties with all of my family, which I don't want to do. I am now pregnant with my fifth child and have had to lie about my due date, for my own piece of mind. Even though she thinks I am not due for 6 more weeks my mother is phoning several dozen times a day to see if I have gone into labour yet. I have caller id on my phone and don't answer it most of the time, but if I do that for too many days she resorts to phoning anyone she can think of fiening great distress and worry that she thinks something awful must have happened to me. I have changed my phone number in the past and not given it to her, but it only takes one well meaning person to pass it onto her and I'm back to square one. I have even had the police turn up before to check everything is alright because of a report from my mother telling them I had disappeared with the children.

Wow that was much longer than I intended it to be. Thanks everyone, this thread has made me feel normal again.

I don't think most NC are doing it because they get nothing out of them though they are doing it to avoid the ongoing abuse (at least I am!)

yay! big steps Tiggy. So impressed at your style!

I would be sorely tempted to just tease and say, we lay on the ground in the park for a while and looked at the sky, or went on swings, without explaining any of the concepts behind or the derived learning from, as then she would have to either feign understanding of the implications of that, or just keep asking, and she couldn't ask DS. - you could also just say, its complicated, and I've been doing it all day, can we talk about something else now. Just keep saying it till everyone's bored of it, and beyond! Because thats the point, its fun and learning.

whats the saying, small step for armstrong, giant leap for mankind.

These things are easy, not even considered, steps for others, but are huge leaps forward for us, because everything is so weighted. Would love to have seen her face! She won't like it you know! ah aha!

You are noticing all the stuff you do [to appease] and realise whats normal ! and changed it too.

Keep being really pleased with yourself, even if when she acts up because you're not falling in line any more.

That's a very good point noddy.

So does it follow that if I don't fear any continued abuse, I might as well renew contact? Should I?

I don't think that my parents are capable of abusing me anymore (I'm sufficiently emotionally detached at this point, and I accept that their dysfunctional behaviour will continue and can't be stopped, at least not by me).

• I hate the way they behave towards each other, but that's their lookout.
• I hate the way they trained me for an abusive marriage of my own, but that was my responsibility to get out of, and I did.
• I hate my mother's "I'm such a victim!" outbursts and meltdowns, but they're her problem, not mine.
• I hate the fact that they will never acknowledge or seek to mend the above, but I accept that that's the way things are.
• I needed to be away from them to process all sorts of emotions and discoveries during my divorce, and I believe I have now achieved that.

Now what I'm left with after a calming period of NC is that I just don't like them, and that's what's keeping me away, rather than fear of continuing abuse. Am I therefore being selfish and unreasonable to maintain NC? It doesn't feel necessary anymore. But it is nice.

For me to resume contact it would take an apology first and foremost and some acknowledgement of her antics over the years. In my case it won't happen though as my mother cuts anyone out of her life who disagrees with her and has never afaik rekindles any sort of relationship with any of them

I would also need my mother to treat all of us better I could never resume contact while she still treats my 2 siblings like shit but worships her favourite.

I'm thinking aloud to work out my own path, so please don't take what follows as any indictment of your choices, noddy.

When I first went NC, I also thought that "For me to resume contact it would take an apology first and foremost and some acknowledgement of her antics over the years." It's what I was holding out for.

Now, I realise that that will never happen. And that's ok. Ok in the sense that she is who she is, and I can't change that. I was only hurting myself by holding out for acknowledgement of my feelings from people incapable/unwilling to give it.

So: I'm not holding out for anything anymore. NC is comfortable, but no longer necessary. I don't desire any contact with them, but I can handle it. I think.

OK. I guess I will mull over how best to go from NC to low-C where I only give as much as I am willing to. Much as I would like to spell it out to them, in the end it may be best for me to keep my truths to myself, considering how little good it will do any of us if I try to explain that I was, but am no longer, holding out for them to acknowledge and respect my feelings.

As ever, thanks to all or the forum where I can work out my thoughts, and thanks to noddy for the input!

My mother wants no contact with us btw not the other way round although it is peaceful if odd!

Christ alive NAR - that's bloody appalling! I really think NC is the only solution but would involve many months of major hassle while you're pg - not sure which would be worse - seeing them or dealing with the fallout of not seeing them!

I too have wondered if I am narcissistic myself by refusing to engage anymore. They didn't abuse me as such, just ignored me & didn't protect me so I suppose I'm doing the same to them now!

My narc BIL cut us off thankfully; best thing he ever did for us.

I feel it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

HotDamn, I think your mother would systematically tread on any boundaries you would care to set whilst she would also try and chip away at any boundary you care to set. For instance if you agreed with her say to one visit a fortnight she would more than likely push for more. She also has her willing enabler of a H to help her in this.

I would think very carefully about even going low contact with such people. If you are happy with the current state of no contact I would stick with that. If in doubt do nowt as a Yorkshire saying goes.

midwife

I think you just want to protect yourself from any more hurt at the hands of your parents. It is more than ok to say enough and walk away from such damaged people. You are protecting yourself from their dramas, not creating more of it.

I think Narcs always feel they have won if you go back. It is how they operate.

But it is tempting to think that there's a resolution available, that the situation can be 'coped' with as long as we've done enough work on ourselves. For me this was an echo of the wish that it had been different in the first place.

I originally went NC for 10 years and then went back when I was tired of it being such an issue. I convinced myself that I could cope, that I could be in the relationship with her as an adult. And indeed, for quite some time she behaved. But in the end, she reverted and I was left feeling like I'd allowed myself to be fooled again. That was it, no more contact.

Jesus Christ NAR4!!! Thats not Narc, thats extreme abuse - I would stay completely away for your own safety, and that of your children, it is the extreme extension of the things we regularly report on here. My NarcM for instance trying every trick in the book to work out if I had gone in labour/given birth, sending others round, getting others to phone, etc. but blimey coming and taking the baby from the ward!! Or trying, thank god for security on maternity wards [scarey] !

I would completely let the police turn up as much as they like, then they will be aware of her dangerous behaviours; saying, oh what, has your daughter taken HER OWN children away again? Report her to the police for extreme cruelty and harrassment is as far as I would take it. If your father can kick your legs away from you when you are going down the stairs pregnant and break your back (in a 'can't you take a joke' way), they are a risk to you and your DC.

I am so appalled and sorry that you have had to suffer this in your life. You are amazing to go on to looking after your 4, soon to be 5 children. I cant believe the door thing either! and completely horrified that so many knew and didn't say, but I guess that is not so surprising in a lot of ways.

Oh gawd NAR4. What to say. Weird MN also has meant that the timing of your posting popped up long after mine had already been posted and yet mine appeared straight after yours, making it look like yours might have been being ignored for far more important discussions

I am horrified at the catalogue of abuses you suffered and your parents should be doing time.

I hope it has helped you to share all of that. Welcome here, come and share your experiences, you'll be understood and supported (and I aplogise for the shock reaction, I hopeyou wouldn't let it prevent you sharing any more that is helpful to?)

take care xxx

completely take midwife s good point about 'damage limitation' for the time of your pg.

Thankyou Fairyfi

I am still trying to decide whether to not to tell any of my family when I have given birth, just to avoid the stress of my parents turning up. Can't help but feel it could store up a bigger problem with her using it as 'proof' to other family members of how awful I am to her. Not sure I care what they think anymore though.

I am very lucky to have the most wonderful in laws, who know what my parents are like and are always very supportive. They help put me back together emotionally when my parents get me down (which over time is less often).

I had it on my birth plan last time and this time telling the midwifes that my parents were not to be allowed onto the ward or given any information.

Reading other peoples experiences does make my life seem more 'normal'. If you ever mention anything to other people their reaction is normally to make an excuse for my parents such as 'I'm sure it was an accident' or 'they probably meant well'. Why can't most people understand our parents are just arseholes?

Nar4, your parents are evil. Is it worth keeping them in your life just to have contact with other members of your family, who, if I read your post correctly, deny or dismiss the horrendous treatment you've suffered at your parents hands?