"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I have been NC with my parents for close to a year. It's great, but I think I would look/feel like less of a freak if I entered a phase of emotionally detached low contact with them".

Why do you think that; you're not a freak at all. If you're happy to remain NC then remain so.

Societal conventions put pressure on people to have relationships with their parents but when they are clearly not up to the job it is more than OK to my mind to cease all contact. Why go back for yet more abuse?. Such people do not change and your Dad's recent attempt re let bygones be bygones to my mind puts the onus back on you. Again there is no apology nor acknowledgement of their wrong actions.

Also your parents seemingly have lost contact with one daughter already; they won't change and will not accept any responsibility for their actions.

I still find it hard that my parents never even sent my ds a xmas card and he is totally innocent in all this. I still struggle with not having my say. My mother is telling anyone who will listen about what i said in an email and how awful it was (it wasn't) but she has showed it to no one I have showed several people mine and hers and they are shocked at hers! I understand that low level contact makes you less of a freak but my sister and I know that once my mum cuts someone out thats it so we have no choice. It is still affecting me every day that she is lying and doing the poor me act without giving people the facts

All good points, forgetmenots and Attila.

I share your view that NC is in fact less drama in this case, and I know I'm not a freak. However, outside perception is important to me (I want to appear mature and not have "red flag" planted on my forehead as I get back on the dating scene, really).

I also want to feel inwardly that I am able to handle my parents in a mature way. As in, able to handle their inadequacies and rise above it. I feel like the past year has been me going through a much-needed phase of detaching from my parents that I should have done as a teenager, if I had been born in a healthy family, and that now I am ready to enter into the mature adult phase of my life in terms of how I relate to my parents.

Also your parents seemingly have lost contact with one daughter already; they won't change and will not accept any responsibility for their actions.

One of my sisters died in childhood; that's what my Dad was referring to. My other surviving sister, btw, while being totally enmeshed with my parents emotionally, has chosen to move across the ocean, and has not come home for Christmas for the past 10 years. She tells them it's because it's tricky and expensive to travel at Christmas time, but really it's because she prefers to spend Christmas with our saner relatives on the other side of the pond. My parents are oblivious about this.

I don't know how to answer what you want HotDAMN but I do think that bygones are not actually bygones, they are now and forever sadly.

Bygones are where people lose it, get rude, apologise or not, the parties won't get over it and then time goes by, etc.. so then parties can agree to let bygones be bygones.

I wonder if it is realistic to have a short-form of contact without any high drama? I experience high-drama 2nd hand via other family members that have made attempts to contact us, and they have actually then had a glimpse of the screwyness of it all for themselves. Now I don't have any sense of the high-drama because all the things said to others, relayed to me, just don't have any effect really, and there is a lot of distance.

I have considered the same, many, many times, but now I just don't feel the need to have a superficial link to them that would be meaningless and I can't see a way of having a relationship. I often feel if I could 'manage' the relationship better (as in handle the dynamic), it could work on that level, but once again what for exactly?

I only felt 'freaky' about not having family when I felt it was my fault, but realised that people don't blame you for having violent/abusive parents, and then I didn't feel freaky.

So in answer to your question... I don't want anything from them; I kinda think if I did, it wouldn't matter anyway as it never did. what do you want, apart from not to feel freakish about saying I don't see my parents?

I'm sorry about your sister HotDAMN. If this isn't too intensely personal a question, has that loss often been blamed as the source for the subsequent behaviour? (Similar but not as tragic experience here). Please ignore question if it's too sensitive.

I know what you mean, it is about showing the world normality but also proving to yourself you can rise above it. It makes sense and I don't want to dissuade you from that if you would find it empowering but I really would be worried that it is based on the old notion that somehow this all 'isn't that bad'. People who have endured violence or sexual abuse would not be expected to have the 'maturity' to deal with it. You may feel yourself this is different and no one can judge that, but question it to be sure you aren't just falling into the old preconceptions of what families are supposed to do.

Fairy raises a good question - what for? If it is genuinely for your own self worth and you feel strong enough that you can put up with it, or even go NC again if it doesn't work, you alone can decide. I would be very clear from the get go, though, because what you could be inadvertently teaching them is that you will always be persuaded to stop NC, even after a year. It could make any future attempt twice as difficult.

FWIW I think being NC isn't something many can do as a teenager effectively when you're dealing with growing up - I think it's only in the maturity of adulthood you can make these difficult choices and understand fully the consequences. We are about to have to deal with extended family seeing into our own dysfunctional relationships at the moment and, yes, I worry about being judged or dismissed (as does DH). But none of them have walked that road, and it has been hell.

Good luck HotDAMN whatever you choose to do.

I just don't feel the need to have a superficial link to them that would be meaningless and I can't see a way of having a relationship. I often feel if I could 'manage' the relationship better (as in handle the dynamic), it could work on that level, but once again what for exactly?

My feelings exactly.

what do you want, apart from not to feel freakish about saying I don't see my parents?

Well, that, and also to be able to be on nodding terms at events like my cousin's wedding this year, and the inevitable weddings and funerals to come.

The events thing is really, really tough. I'll give you that one. That plays on my mind.

Anyone managed to have a not-really-engaging-but-not-causing-a-scene relationship with family that has allowed funerals, weddings etc to pass smoothly? Could be good advice for us all!

has that loss often been blamed as the source for the subsequent behaviour?

No, not as such. My own interpretation is that my mother dislikes me because I was a toddler when my sister was ill/dying, and she just couldn't cope with toddler behaviour at that difficult time. She still brings up my behaviour at the age of 3 (when my sister died) as "proof" that I am "bad" to this day.

I think she was a troubled person with narcissistic traits well before my sister's death. In terms of her relationship with me, though, my sister's death may have aggravated her tendencies.

Understood, completely. I have no doubt she will always have been troubled and narcissistic (I'm sure I read somewhere that it is highly unlikely it is ever brought on by events) - in our situation a childhood trauma has been used as an excuse for why things are so hard, and any boundary is 'uncaring'. Really didn't mean to pry. I find what you are saying about bringing up childhood behaviour interesting and useful though, thanks.

In my case the events thing will have more effect on her tbh as myself and my sister and my dp and ds will always get invited to things rather than her. She goes to nothing not even her dh mums funeral in the summer let him go alone with their son who had never even met them and he is 30!

HotDamn I think choosing not to have abusive people in your life is dealing with them in a mature way.

You want to 'handle their inadequacies and rise above it'. Are you sure that's your voice? I can hear a batsqueak of 'it wasn't that bad so I should be able to move on'. BTW, I get it, I'm not pointing fingers.

And who would see a red flag? You don't have to tell anyone you're dating what your relationship with your parents is. You don't have to explain to anyone. You can say they're dead until you know whether your date gets it enough for you to explain without being judged.

As for events, that's a really tough one. We don't do 'talking about things' and so it was all just carefully stage managed so that nothing needed to be faced. I'm culpable in that. But then, 'talking about it' would have achieved nothing so..back round the circle I go..

NC is great in many ways, but because it's unusual there is always the pressure to go back. Which makes it a lonely place when you feel like a freak. Price we pay for not having the narcs in our lives.

I hope this hasn't come across as too tough. I do get it.

I am finding the telling people tough going. It was ok up to xmas as everyone me inc probably thought she would apologise and make things right but she didn't and now people keep asking me about it. Thankfully my sister is with me. And we have had a fair few people from our childhood come out of the closet in support but I am cross with them for not intervening Confused

No, not too tough at all.

And you're right about the batsqueak. I would have a hard time calling their behaviour towards me abusive. As I see it, they are in an abusive marriage of their own that I don't want to witness anymore (since I modeled my relationship choices on theirs and ended up with a husband who made me fear for my life), and they treated me with a combination of neglect, contempt, along with lavish gifts and trips to Stately Homes.

I still don't know what I want to do, and I know that I'm happy with the current NC, so I guess I'll just carry on with it for the time being.

Noddy that must have been really tough :(
I hope you have more interventions to come.

I found the 'what about family' questions difficult, but its true enough when I tell people I just don't have any family atall around here. It is true, I don't. They are not my family - we are related - (goes back to the comment about a series of dysfunctional relationships being described as family).

Also, one of the major things about having any contact is having to face/deal with the feelings of being spoken about so badly - just as a result of barely interacting.

going NC somehow felt like I couldn't cope with those bad things being said, but it made no difference actually, and was less (well, out of earshot, as I imagine my name was probably thrown down in the dirt spat on and trampled completely), because I didn't have to hear it, but I could well imagine, but then the people that care would know that its not just you (me), or even you (me) atall. I went from zero family to maybe under 10 in the last 10 yrs, as some take me for me, and not for what she/he say I am.

My baby stopped breathing went blue and was resuscitated and rushed into scbu at hours old, I knew nothing of prognosis - testing for meningitis, scans, lines in, emergency situation. Xray showed pnuemonia; weren't sure for days which way it would go. 'They' marched into hospital and 'he' proceeded to get angry at me o/side the scbu unit about how awful I was to not phone them, and how dare I leave 'her' to get in such a mess worrying about what was happening. We've been trying to phone you; how dare you not call us - meanwhile I just listened, in tears and had no words, was already on the floor emotionally and I couldn't tell them (at only one day later!), whether my baby would live or die! - but they didn't ask!!!! She was resentful of the baby through my pregnancy, vile to me, and excluded me wherever possible, and was then resentful after the baby arrived. This, and more besides, very shortly led to NC.

and my FW of an Ex holds this up as some sort of badge of honour and example of what a 'jolly decent bloke he is' that he supported me in my decision to go NC! and had a jolly good time toasting getting drunk with his mates the birth of his child (whilst still baby prognosis still unknown and in scbu)

So now, I find it impossible to see how the same scenario would ever turn out any different.

NC doesn't make any difference to the freaky things they will tell people about you, but when you are not having contact others will wonder what there is to keep going on about as there are no longer any 'incidents of awful daughter' to tell everyone.

and have had to do funerals since that. Just nodded and carried on, which later was a huge scene (apparently), but not at the funeral thankfully. Maybe there will be weddings, but I have been excluded from any family function so other than funeral which I cannot be excluded from, it hasn't come up.

For me all the effort was a continual attempt to say 'but I'm not horrible, I'm ok! - whilst still half or fully believing that it was ALL my fault' If they were decent people they wouldn't vent their spleens to others, but would try to sensitively approach you to try to come to a place of peace together (don't make me laugh!)

I know that sounds a lot like a lot of ME post, but it was the best way I could think to show some of the ways that have helped me, that might be of use here. so although I am NC I would still nod at events, and not be rude (I don't have the energy for all those dramatics, or indeed feel the need to justify myself to them, or in front of others) but certainly been there.

sorry for the long post!

Fairy that is shocking. I hope your little one is okay.

You have done the right thing but I get the feeling you don't need me to tell you that!

I think my ILs see any contact as validation, any reply as an open invite, which is why I would be so, so cautious about any resuming contact. Your non-family are the poorer for you, this has been really useful, thanks for sharing it (if that's not too un-MN!)

ha ha! Fmnots no, you're right, I really did know it was time Little one continued to be in and out of hospital, which I don't think I coped with terribly well, but felt I was gonna crack in two trying to cope with the attacks/withdrawals from her/them, all at the same time aswell... but I did have to be pushed to the limit it seems before cracking the relationship rather than me, but I had the baby to do it for (don't know what else would have made me do it as I was so under the dominion)

When I nodded [at the funeral] it was taken as an invite to jump in with both feet by her, but I [somehow] managed to say ' hello, but I cannot say more', or 'I have to go' now (as I say, huge fallout over that very minimal statement, as in I heard about how much I'd try to upset her at a funeral when she was so upset, blah blah blah - but I always upset her in any situation its my job )

... and thank you for the validation, and the unMN sentiments, appreciated

Fi I am for you. Sometimes all we can do is keep putting one foot in front of the other and then after a while we notice we've moved further away from the crap. Day at a time stuff (omigod it's the Hallmark card again).

It's so hard isn't it, but going nc was a positive step for me, although at times i feel compelled to change my mind.
Like today for instance, my dc is upset as she wants to see her cousin at her birthday do, and is quite upset she can't. I can't say yes to her as i know seeing my neices will start up contact with my sil of whom i prefer to keep nc with as she is a go-between with mil & dh and likes to cause trouble at every corner.
I nearly invited one of the older ones, but i daredn't as i don't want to go back there iyswim, it causes too much trouble with dh.
He wants kids to see their cousins, but he so blind to the problems it causes regarding his mental health and general mood.

It's awful when you are forced to cut-off so many people and at times i feel guilt especially to the children i no longer see, but nc is for the best.

I didnt have that problem as I was completely excluded from anything where she was, so choice taken away. I know there will be times ahead when there will be clashes (as in both there at same event) or further exclusions. It does make it easier when they are puppeteers for as many family members as 'they' are! (but sad about our lack of involvement - but I suspected this wld be the case).

For you to walk that very tricky path (you and your Hallmark Cards fresh, me and my paths ) is complex and draining Pumpkin as every decision has to be made with implications of fallout in mind! grrr. and harder too when you're doing it for your DH mental health sake - its so awful

I think I forgot to say that I always upset him too. I am such a darned nuisance messing up everyone's lives all the time!

YY to ^thread talk of needing to be a good age (beyond teenager years, and I would say well beyond) of maturity emotionally before equipped to go NC. When pushed out at 17 I wasn't ready and couldn't cope with the rejection atall, plus I think it might take longer to grow up emotionally with narcs??

I have just been told about this thread and would like to join..
Firstly I have had yet another argument with my parents bt this time is different I have my new baby to add into the mix and I cannot let him have the same sort of life I have had.
I have had years of mental abuse off my parents who drink a lot and everytime I thibk right that's it I get upset about everythung and want my parents in my life even tho I no there no good.
How can I learn to leave the past behind me and move on.

Welcome choc. I am only an occasional poster here but often lurk, there is a huge amount of good advice from others. Many seem to have experience of parents who drink heavily.

A new baby makes everything 'matter' so much more. Your own mental health is vital for a happy baby. You must put YOU first, I wish I'd had the confidence to do that when mine were little.

CBT v useful for dealing with the past in my experience - is this a possibility do you think? Surprisingly short wait for NHS treatment I found. it's not a miracle cure but it can help - you have to learn to realise that your parent's behaviour is NOT your fault.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Keep watching the thread, you are not alone.

Most importantly - enjoy your baby!

welcome Choc and welcome to the world choc'lette Having a baby was definitely what pushed me to action (see above). I did loads and loads of yo-yoing (as you describe) before thinking the damage was too bad to keep going. You talk of leaving the past, but you say that this is the present - are you meaning your parents [being the past]?

Reading these posts may help you see a lot that you recognise and can give clarity. Enjoy your baby and you together. Fi

Iv spoken to my hv and she thinks I should speak to a councoler.I hardly slept lastnight i just trying to convince myself this will pass.I'm worried to go out because of my parents who make storys up about me.I don't know how to get on with my life.

Oh sorry yeah meanin my parents as the past and everything iv gone through buy it always comes flooding back to me n I can't keep on letting them hurt me.Especially now I have a baby.