"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

I did always mistake lust for good looking guys as being what it was all about (never talked through with anyone or realised thats just a physical reaction and might not relate to the actual person atall! doh!) So when I got that I tried to go for the seeminly charming, funny guy and wasn't that physically attractive - turned out he was passive /agg and got into boomerang, he professed to care but was about as warm and caring of my upsets and real concerns as cuddling a bloody fridge at night. The cold used to seep across the bedsheets- sex made me cry at the end - yep I was clueless.

I actually didn't realise how critical my NSDM was, as she never really talked to me, but I did get fed to me the criticisms about me, through family. Did your mum have any friends orchidee? wold she have very high expectations of you - and that felt like a rejection? you were disappointed about them?

your poor mother baubles having to face those awful dentists looking at her like that! - bitch, and v. on your behalf at her for causing you so much pain and damage - completely unsurprised tha tyou have a phobia, but so glad you did get it that she did such wrong (and just saw you had called her bitch, well done I reckon!) you have made it so different fo ryours and are justly proud of that. what an inspiration!

yeah, pain of all sorts completely ignored, pain causing vomiting, extreme major mirgraines with projectile vomiting, not to mention the emo stuff. you not alone baubles

Thanks FairyFi.

I remember in my counselling sessions my therapist encouraging me to imagine saying whatever I wanted to my mother and I squeaked in the tiniest voice 'I don't think you are very nice.' But now I can say bitch bitch bitch and dont feel too much of a bad daughter for it.

I recognise what several of you are saying about accepting crap / abusive relationships and marriages as the norm, almost like we 'deserve' them. I have had one very dodgy partner with a similar history to mine, after 5 years of drugs hell I left him as he inched closer and closer to hitting me and pimping me out for drugs money. The twat.

My dh now is lovely though. He has had a very happy loving childhood and he often reminds me how odd mine was by contrast. It's taken him about 8 years to really get it though. I don't think I opened up much about it to him before though - I just couldn't.

How do the rest of you deal with discussing this stuff in rl? Do you? Or don't you? Do you feel that other 'normal' (sorry!) people won't understand?

I tend not to be specific, but I will point out to a friend if they're being subjected to narc behaviour, and I have dumped a 'friend' because they were being classic narc with me (I made sure she knew why though). I'm so sensitive to it now that I ought to have a 'narc police' badge made.

DH gets it. He's furious on my behalf but too polite to take on my family. Although given what went on recently I think if he'd come face to face with any of them he might well have said a few choice things.

But mostly I keep it out of rl. I find that therapeutic, it denies my narc family a voice in a way.

baubles your post re: teeth is so sad. My mother wasn't nearly as bad as yours but teeth/dental hygeine is clearly an issue with abusive mothers. My ma's teeth are v dark/discoloured, she hates them. But as children we were never made to clean our teeth, I clearly remember, aged about 9 or 10, scraping 'gunk' off them with a fingernail! I am now obsessed with dental hygeine, bleach my teeth etc.

As for discussing abuse in RL, I agree with you it's v difficult. My mother & my 1st husband had an affair (this was over 3 decades ago, my mum was still married to my dad at the time - I married v young) & I find it almost impossible to speak about. Partly because I have a fear of not being believed - it's so bloody Eastenders isn't it.

I told my (2nd) DH many years ago but we've never been able to address it since. Two close girlfriends know & they're brilliant about it. I recently had counselling - even my lovely counsellor was shocked.

My mother, btw, has re-invented herself as a matriarch who always did her best for her kids. She's pretty convincing actually. But inside I will never ever forgive her for the betrayal - not only of me but also my dad (even though my dad and I have been estranged for years) & younger sibs. She put her own greedy sexual desires before her responsibilities as a parent. And that's shit isn't it.

Fairy The therapy was DBT (Dialectical Behaviour Therapy) I was diagnosed as having BPD (I've since been re-diagnosed as having chronic depression btw). Despite not being BPD, the mindfulness techniques it teaches are really useful in bringing my emotional mind and logical mind together so that I am more able to judge things accurately. Given that I have always been told that I am a liar and a terrible person, being able to assess things mindfully is a revelation! My mother, of course, tells everyone that I am bi-polar, and that that is why I am the terrible person I am.... because I am psychotic

Baubles How awful! I have a real 'thing' about teeth. I had the same tooth brush for about 5 years, by the time I 'lost' it, the bristles were flat and my teeth were orange. Eventually, my DGM took me to a dentist who sorted them out for me, I ended up having braces because my adult teeth weren't in the correct positions. I had to have an operation on my mouth. My mother dropped me off at Guy's hospital foyer and left me there, I was 14 and terrified.
No wonder you're terrified of dentists, the few times you saw them they hurt you!

I have discussed some things with people in Rl, but when their jaws drop and they start looking ill, I stop. It sounds like something from those 'tell all' child abuse books, something that happens to other people, not to friends.... iyswim?

Perfect My mother also had an affair with one of my ex boyfriends (we were together when it started, he dumped me for her, she dumped him soon after, not so much fun when you can't see the pain). She propositioned DH a couple of weeks after we married, he was terrified!

Baubles I find few people understand tbh. It took my ExH seeing it, to believe it

God CaptChaos that's awful!

I know exactly what you mean about it sounding like something from a child abuse book!

My mother is obsessed with said books. Funny that.

All we can do is make sure the next generation are not treated like this! X

I have had a lot of problems with my teeth over the years - have only got about half my teeth and have got top and bottom dentures. Have a memory of being in pain with toothache day after day in school and knowing that no-one gave a shit.

I'm wondering if anyone could advise me, absolutely no worries if not. I have been going low contact with family for just over a year, which is working well for me. I saw them at Christmas and felt pretty much ok, by using certain techniques to stay ok. But a week ago I got a text from my sil, thus: Dear violets, was good to see you over Christmas. A lot of water has flowed under the old proverbial bridge these last few years but starting to feel like everyone is coming through for better times ahead hopefully, happy new year.

I'm fuming and I haven't replied. I just don't want to go there! I'm tangled up now again in difficult feelings about them and I was getting good at emotional detachment. It's especially weird because it was her (late) h who abused me in childhood (my bro), and my niece (her daughter) who was pretty vile to me about it a few years ago.

My (grown up) son is very close to them all so that complicates it.

Oh Violet that must've been upset and brought back some horrid feelings. I'd try to not respond personally.

'Upsetting'

Re teeth, I was from a "nice" middle class family and apparently was well provided for.

And I was 28 when a dentist pointed out that I wasn't brushing my teeth correctly. Hadn't been taught or supervised properly as a kid, as an adult nobody guessed I was brushing badly until then.

I have had some teeth out due to recurring issues and currently have a big gap where a molar had to come out.

This week I came across a list of emotional and physical symptoms of trauma.

I have all of them.

Not sure why it took me until now to twig. After my childhood and teen years and seven years with an abusive partner it was probably inevitable.

Violets that text sucks, I would not reply. Any further communication is unlikely to make you feel anything but worse. You don't have to answer to her!

Violets I agree with jess.

Please please just ignore the text. Having her and her daughter in your life can be of no benefit to you at all. Sometimes you just have to be brutal to find any kind of peace. Cut them out - your son is an adult, let him have his own relationship with them.

Does your son know the history? Could you talk to him about your feelings? You must look after your own mental well-being.

I am no expert, I only speak from the experience of cutting my father out of my life about 10 years ago. It worked for me, v liberating as no more tense anticipation and painful analysis of every contact. I knew it was finally over, and that I had taken control not him.

I hope you can find that kind of peace - don't wait as long as I did!

I agree with not answering the text.
Replying to things like this, just fuels their toxic behaviour and gives them means to control you.

Mil has text dh this week asking for him to go & fix something, we ignored it and have heard no more from her

Thanks to everyone for advising me about the text. My instinct was to just ignore it, and I'm going to carry on doing that. I'll probaby see her at Easter but hopefully not the niece who lives abroad.
They all gather at Christmas and Easter (and other times) and my son and his family join them. I've spent the last few years hopping around on the edge not knowing how much to join in. (He does also come and see me in my space).
It felt better this year because I felt I knew why I was there - I wanted to spend as much time as possible with son and co. and also have felt warmer towards two sisters.
The sil seems to have taken this as meaning that all is well and that is far from the truth. Oh shit, can I not just have the bits I want? Fuck! I'm over-thinking..so for now, I'm ignoring. Thanks again for advice. x

such a lovely feeling pumpkin ! very encouraging

She's done a hell of a lot of assuming in that text based on very little apart from your quiet presence?!?! Her lookout to delude herself. I think you've done good FWIW. so yep, you managed to get the bits you wanted, just ignore like you are.

bugger! I keep forgetting names; the 2nd bit was for you violets

Hi all, and apologies for not name checking.

As you know the ongoing saga with my mother's illness continues...it was norovirus, then gastroenteritis, then gall stones...she was in hospital, she wasn't in hospital...and against my better judgement (but in keeping with the lifelong conditioning of guilt) I have text her every day to ask how she is. Her replies have been short and snippy..'getting better' or 'very sick'...I would then ask her 'in what way? Are you eating/drinking ok? Sleeping? Have you seen a dr?'...to which there would be no reply. My texts have obviously been irritating her. So after another text being ignored I decided to leave it until she contacted me. looks like I'll be waiting a long time as my last text to her was on 16th, and it's now 20th and she hasn't bothered, whereas I was texting her every day. I have no idea if she's well, ill, in hospital...golden boy brother won't let me know...I'm actually feeling really shitty about life at the moment. I am weaning myself off antidepressants slowly (was on them for anxiety due to abusive exH) and that, coupled with the dysfunctional relationships that are laughingly grouped together as 'family', is making me feel really really low.

Violets that text must have really hacked you off...my sil (who I haven't spoken to for years) suddently took it upon herself to start giving me orders about my mother when she needed to come home from hospital, telling me I HAD to go and pick her up (80 mile round trip as opposed to her neing 5 mins away from M) and yet the night before had told me not to bother driving down as there was nothing I could do that my brother and her couldn't do! I was furious at the interference. Have you still manage dto ignore it?

Baubles wrt the teeth being neglected...my teeth were always looked after but it did trigger another memory of when I was only about 7ish, and was walking along a wall...you know the red brick ones with kind of wavy lines on them? I slipped,one leg went one side and one went the other and I ripped my leg open just below the knee on the inside leg. The gash was about 6 inches long and gaping. Do you know I was never taken to the hospital? It was never stitched. She is a hospital phobic (among SO many other things) so rather than gritting her teeth and taking me, or getting someone else to take me, she left it to heal. As a result I have a mahoosive scar on my leg, still about 6 inches long and 2 inches wide. I mean, wtf???

Anyway, hope you are all keeping warm and safe in the snow.

x

oh oh oh oh patches oh oh -(these replace all the swear words I'm actually saying) just, well, I don't know what to say.

I really like the way you say the group of dysfunctional relationships laughingly grouped together as family thats a really healthy view of it. don't let the b'stards grind you down (which is ironically one of my aggressive father's most stock phrases?!?!?) - only once in my life did he ever phone me when I'd managed to make it obvious, in a mirror like way to him, what he'd done to me the last time i saw him, as he called himself one. That was our last conversation. Its tough, but its better [for me] than trying to live with it, realising I would always be the one at fault, etc. Keep going and good luck with the AD's take it easy.

That is a great phrase indeed patches. Writing it down!

Have decided to forego the weaning off anti depressants for now. I felt so ill earlier - I felt like I was about to have a full blown panic attack, had the headache from hell, dizzy and the kids couldn't breathe without me shouting at them. I think perhaps the time isn't quite right for me to come off them.

It's nice to see the thread has slowed down a bit...hopefully because everybody is having an easier time of it?

Thanks fairyfi and patches - yes still ignoring the text, and that seems to be getting easier with time. X

It' s nice to see that this thread isn't filling up as the last one
I'm assuming that most of you are having a better time of it, well I do hope so.
Sorry to hear you are still getting cheap of your mother patches, I do hope things get better soon or die down least.

So far so good for dh, he' s phoned his mother once, he seemed off with me after but I told him to snap out of it. Just glad it has only been one phone call rather than lots iyswim
We have had texts from her about fixing something and about her electric going off!- both probably ways to get him over there, well he hasn't fallen for it thankfully. I'm sure fil can deal with it like most other able bodied adults.

Here's a question I don't know how to answer, so I'm setting it to you, panel of Stately Homers:

What, if anything, do I (you) want from my (your) dysfunctional parents?

I am in a position where the ball is in my court to ask my parents for what I want from them, and I don't know what that is.

I have been NC with my parents for close to a year. It's great, but I think I would look/feel like less of a freak if I entered a phase of emotionally detached low contact with them. I am strong enough for this emotionally, after a lot of work.

Enabler Dad sent me a Christmas card, which was not as useless as his last attempts at contact. It basically just said: we don't want to lose another daughter, so let bygones be bygones. No acknowledgement of my feelings, or of their poor behaviour, of course. He's basically asking for everything to be shoved under the carpet, and for service to resume as before.

Obviously these are not terms I am interested in, but what terms do I want to bargain for? I'm beyond asking them for respect, or for acknowledgement of my feelings and of their poor parenting, since they are too dysfunctional to face this.

Frankly, I'm happy not having them in my life. The only thing I don't like is the high-drama aspect of being NC from my parents. I understand who they are, and expect nothing from them anymore. Is there a way of ending NC without committing to anything, iyswim? Basically, since they cannot be good parents or people I can have a meaningful relationship with, the only thing I feel like telling them is "Oh fine, send me e-mails and pretend to the world and to yourselves that you have a relationship with your daughter if you feel like it, but I won't be coming over or hosting you for any visits, and I don't feel like fielding any phone calls from you."

Which might as well be NC. It boils down to the fact that I just can't be bothered with them anymore.

WWYD?

HotDAMN, it strikes me that even if you know you're not committing to anything, with many of these people it's all or nothing - if you're in their orbit then you might as well be joined to them, part of them - my worry would be that if you resume contact then all of your energy will go into maintaining your boundary while they chip away at it.

It seems to me that you're most worried about outward perceptions of that relationship, which I completely understand, but honestly it's no one else's business. You are reducing drama, not creating it, by going NC.

A lot of this will no doubt be projection on my part so feel free to disregard anything irrelevant. I've been through a lot of these feelings with DH though and I think they are common for children from toxic families.