"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Hi Captain,

I have taken something from the beginning of this thread if you have not already read it:-

"One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth".

To my mind (and I write as someone who has narc ILs. The narc BIL cut us off thankfully when we did not do his bidding) what happened to you was as extreme as has happened to others on here; never ever try and downplay your own experiences.

Your mother (and she is not worthy of being called such a thing) is a narcissist to my mind; such damaged women often have a scapegoat and golden child and they take great pride in doing so.

It is not possible to my mind to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist as they are too damaged and make everything all about them. It is not your fault she is like this but what you can certainly do is further protect you and by turn your children (who she is using as narc supply primarily) from her malign influences.

You may want to read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers as well as I think that could well help you.

daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/golden-child-scapegoat.html

You may find the above link also helpful.

The decision to go NC was made by the narc BIL as we did not do his bidding but its got him out of our lives and considering the way he is now, that is a good thing.

Princess Fi the type of therapy I had was called psychodynamic therapy.

It's central aim is helping you to understand your past and how it relates to your present and future.

So there is quite a bit of focus on childhood experiences and your family of origin.

The first therapist I had was not quite right for me. I think she came from a very Freudian place in that she presented me with a 'blank screen' and if I asked her a question she would turn it back to me "I wonder why you are asking that" for example. Which is perfectly legitimate and professional question to ask but I just wasn't ready for this non-engagement. I found it confusing and disturbing. I felt a bit left to flounder really.

However my second therapist was Jungian [not that the theory really matters but I had done a bit of reading on Jung and was very interested in myths and fairystories and the collective unconscious so was drawn to her]. This therapist was warm and gentle but most importantly gave me the sense that she was really interested in me, held me in mind and cared about how I felt. I didn't really have this experience in my FOO with two narcissistically wounded parents so her approach was like water to someone who has been dehydrated for a long long time.

Ultimately I think the most important thing is the relationship you build up with your therapist in the therapy and this gives you a place of safety in which to explore your emotions and issues.

It absolutely was a lifesaver for me.

Completely agree with Attila, I have narc ILs too - and I often feel guilty for having a functional family, and that as an in law my experience is obviously much less than those here dealing with parents. But it strikes me that this is a safe place to share and no one can judge how bad things are or cast doubt. You think you're being self indulgent because you have been trained to think that expressing your own feelings is self-indulgent. It isn't.

What do you feel you would like to do next, Captain?

Thank you for the link Attila I have skimmed through some of it, but the invalidation page was scarily similar. Do you think they have a script somewhere? 'How to screw up your children'?

Forget you should never feel guilty for having a functional family, if I hadn't met my DH, I might never have seen what one looked like, and therefore might have continued to believe that mine was normal.

I have tried before to go NC with my mother, but she always finds a way back, it's also not appropriate for the next couple of months. My DS1 is getting married soon, and if I go NC I will ruin everything for them. However, after that, I am determined to go NC with my poisonous SiL, I will miss my brother terribly, but he will know where I am if he wants to see me. I am going to need support to go NC with my mother, the guilt will, if past experience counts, be crippling. My Dh and I have talked about it, and he will support my choice, but I think I am going to try and get my GP to refer me to a therapist.

We are planning to emigrate when DS2 has finished school, so NC will be a lot easier then, but I don't think I can cope with this for another 4 years iyswim, so something has to give before that.

HI Captain

In answer to your first question yes I think they do. None of what you have written re your narcissistic mother has surprised me in the least; it reads very similarly to others who also have the misfortune to have narcs as parents.

FOG - fear,obligation and guilt are three legacies that toxic people leave their children now adults. You seem to be very much still in the FOG with regards to your mother.

BTW how does she worm her way back in?. Such people often use guilt trips to get their victim to comply; also they still want narc supply from you. Never forget that the only people who only bother with narcs now are those who have received special training at their damaged hands.

Certainly take the issue re NC at your own pace.

Glad to read that you have a supportive H; he will help you also.

Re seeing the GP about a therapist, you may well have to wait an age to see someone and counselling on the NHS can be limited to only a few sessions. Instead I would suggest you contact BACP and see if there is someone in your area you can see. Also this can be achieved far sooner.

A book I would recommend you read is "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

CaptChaos...the golden child...such a common thing among us. My brother is the golden child, so much so that it's sickening. He is married with 3 kids, and my mother hates his wife with a passion. Every time something goes wrong in his family it is always the wife's fault, or the kids' fault...they are 'putting on him', or using him...it's always 'poor newpatches bro, he's so sweet he buys everything she says' or 'poor newpatches bro, he's too nice to say no'...are you kidding me? He's a 48 year old man with a mind of his own ffs.
My df died some years ago, and I used to visit his grave 3 times a week and bring flowers. If my mother went up, and there was a bunch of flowers which I hadn't brought up she would practically jump up and down with joy, squealing 'oh, your brother must have brought them, isn't he wonderful'...never mentioning the fact that I had been 3 times a week, every week.
Now it's even worse - she's ill and for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread I haven't been to see her (80 mile round trip), kids doing exams, youngest is only 8 so can't leave them overnight etc...and brother is sooooo fantastic now, the knight in shining armour, and I am the bad one. I've always been looked down on by her and my brother...the 'poor relation', the single mum, divorcee...I am sick of it.
She openly admits she hates women, and has always said she would rather have had 10 boys than 1 girl. Nice thing to say to your daughter eh?

So I've just had to explain to DH that a nice person is not someone who only behaves acceptably to you when you're pandering to them and not doing anything that cause them the slightest bit of discomfort, and has screaming meltdowns when pandering ceases or your wishes do not conform with theirs.

It's difficult because I can see he's starting to slip in to ''she's not all that bad and it's only sometimes that she's difficult'' and I don't know how much I should be challenging him on that. It feels like I'm the one keeping the heat up so to speak by not forgetting her past hideous behaviour, or her dishonesty over the house (and the fact she doesn't give a crap about her legal obligations as landlord).

New patches I have 4 brothers. My Mum openly admits she prefers boys, that they are easier as babies and children That I was so difficult etc. It's so painful.

My twin brother was the golden child and his behaviour is shocking but he can do no wrong in their eyes. It's horrid.

Ive never heard of that Onward it sounds like food for the pain in the soul, sooo soothing (ooops.. like you said about water for the dehydrated!), golden, and you helpfully explained FOO to me which I kept seeing and didn't understand. Thank you for setting that out here. I think since coming here, and on other threads I have found the validity that I read others searching for and finding, and it is like coming home (a particularly odd comparison to draw I think?!) but to find a place where stuff makes sense. I have discovered from an EA thread so much about the yoyoing of my now finished relationship and the cruel damaging patterns which would send me reeling, and the same here. I recognise this also for you capt and hope that you find validity here in recognising but not making judgements about the pain you felt or the wrongs endured.

.. and I wondered about DBT, but I think I've just realised that might be a typo, thats its maybe CBT; sorry to point it out if it was!

and thank you fresh for the reply, I think it crossed with mine so i only just saw it.

fi

Hello again. Thanks for your responses.

One more question:
Does anyone else feel like their position as the golden child or scapegoat was just a temporary thing? Or that you were at times one then the other?

Re therapy: I haven't a clue what approach mine is as it seems to be a mix. Currently I talk; he makes observations, tells me new ways to think about what I've said and asks a few gentle questions.

When he's not reassuring me for the millionth time that it's not nothing, it's okay to be there and/or he's not pissed off with me.

orchidee I was golden child to mum (as long as I played the game). Hence I am scapegoat for my sisters who, now that she's died, are taking the opportunity to express (yet again) their resentment of me.

If only being golden child had been as fabulous as they think, it might just have been worth it.

fresh I could have written your post, albeit with minor changes (mum still alive, brothers rather than sisters).

I was the youngest by a large margin and suspect I dethroned the eldest sibling when I was born. Mum thought it hilarious that he tried to give me away to a local shopkeeper. My mum clearly didn't like the fact that I grew up. By teenage years, she regularly ignored me for random or imagined slights, often for months at a time. This once coincided with a birthday, which was ignored too. She would have seemed the perfect mum to outsiders though. That's one thing I find very difficult, the fact that others don't or wouldn't believe it.

It was only recently that I realised I had no emotional parenting, and no parenting at all as a teenager.

Although I wish I'd had my lightbulb moment as a young adult, and I do feel I've fallen far short of my potential in many areas, given that I largely brought myself up I think I've not done too badly.

She would have seemed the perfect mum to outsiders though. That's one thing I find very difficult, the fact that others don't or wouldn't believe it.

I think this is quite common amongst abusive people, they appear charming and likeable to everyone else that it' difficult for others to believe anything bad said about them.

By any chance, did you have to emotionally parent your mum, orchidee?

orchidee you sound pretty sorted to me. Yes, we do have to bring ourselves up. It's not a straight line process, that's for sure.

Something I'm finding weirdly helpful at the moment: as well as therapy I'm seeing an osteopath on a Groupon deal and an NHS stop smoking counsellor.

So I regularly see 3 authority figures who all listen when I say how I am (indeed when I talk full stop). Part of me thinks it's pathetic that I'm thriving on the attention in this way; part of me thinks it's good if it's positive and nurturing.

Just read my post back. It makes me really sad that I am looking to my bloody osteopath to fill an emotional gap.

Although I wish I'd had my lightbulb moment as a young adult, and I do feel I've fallen far short of my potential in many areas, given that I largely brought myself up I think I've not done too badly.

Hmm reading this back, the tone isn't right but hopefully it's understood. After reading a bit about narc behaviour, I can see how my work, friendships and rationships have been affected.

poster fresh Wed 16-Jan-13 23:03:10
orchidee you sound pretty sorted to me. Yes, we do have to bring ourselves up. It's not a straight line process, that's for sure.
Fuck yeah! Oh and thanks

jess I think I know what you mean. It sounds like you've found some decent healthcare people with a respectful approach.

Fresh I really liked your last post, so get your coat off and come sit down! Its true that is can only be found within its just getting the right guide to lead you there. - thats obviously not now your last post! you've been too busy for me to keep up with

Wanted to thank for public support fresh and I know others found this difficult, but as result couldn't bear to use that nn anymore (wasn't that keen on it) so this is NN she bravely whispered to fellow SHers

...and I';m the same way round as you orchidee re the golden child, it was no fun atall for me either. So we can see how weirdly different things seem from the outside, and inpsiring to hear you acknowlege to yourself of a job well done for bringing yourself up.

I think the most important one is the one that helps you move forward Jess thats something to be very excited about (whether its better bones!, healthier lungs and attitude to physical self, or the emo positive changes) ALL GOOD!

fI

ooo - confusing typo - should read ' its true that IT [cure] can only be found withing...'

oh!!!! 'within' obviously

Just to add to my last post:

Friendships- affected by seeing my mum being critical to everyone and gossip behind backs. And thinking that was normal. Having very high expectations and being inflexible about them and being disappointed that expectations were too high, which was like a rejection.

Relationships- the usual, being trained to accept crap etc etc. Not interested in nice guys. Loved the unavailable bastard types. I used to joke that I wasn't interested in anyone who'd want me. But meant it.

Anyone else?

Hello all Stately Homers (D'oh!) old and new.

I just want to mention, as this is in my thoughts right now, basic neglect by bonkers abusive parents.

My mother had dentures from the age of 18. She used to feed me an awful diet (awful even for the 1980's!) and I never brushed my teeth, I didn't even own a toothbrush. By the age of 6 I was in agony with toothache, and all but 4 of my teeth were rotted away. My mother is a healthcare professional, by the way. Finally she took me to the dentist, as I was complaining all the time about the pain, etc. I had to have all of my teeth removed apart from 4 in my lower jaw. Then I just had to wait for my adult teeth to come in. It was a major operation, I vomitted blood after, reacted badly to the general anaesthetic. I still stick to eating soft non crunchy foods to this day and I'm 35!

My mother hated taking me to the dentist because they 'looked at her like she was a murderer.' And one of the dental team told me that I would understand better what had happened when I had children of my own and looked after their dental hygiene - my mother was at this!

So. In my 20's I was a heroin and methadone addict. This means that again when I met my now dh 12 years ago, I had hardy any teeth left! He has paid a fortune for me to have them fixed, I now basically have almost a full mouth full of dental implants. And three of my crowns popped out yesterday, so on the left of my lower jaw I have 2 'bare' implants, so nothing to chew with! I feel like an old crone! I know that my mother would not and doesn't not give a shit, and does not see anything wrong with what she did. Neither did I, for years. But now I get it.

So I would call that a big failure in her duty of care. My dd is 6 and has not fillings so there mum you bitch.

Anyone else have similar?

I also have severe life long phobia of dentists, and have to fork out for special sedation at every appointment. Grrr...