"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

TBF DFTT it was a little difficult to get what you have just said from your original post...

But perhaps it is safer for us to talk about our own experience here? It is very difficult for any of us to comment on each other's experience/emotional state/psychological coping style with any certainty within the context of this forum. And so many of us have had our experiences translated for us within our toxic family in a not entirely helpful, or completely unhelpful way.

So you have noted that traits can be learned from within your disordered family?

I would agree with this in my experience. I know that, prior to therapy, I was often controlling, short-tempered, oversensitive and somewhat narcissistic in my relationships.

I did think this was 'just how I was' [after all I had heard enough in my FOO how much trouble I caused and how difficult I was].

However what I discovered in therapy was just how much of this was learnt behaviour from FOO, also a defence mechanism against feeling like rubbish.

I believe I am a different person now, fundamentally. But it was a slow and long process of therapy over many years with a gentle and kind therapist that ultimately did the trick. She effectively 're-parented' me [as she put it].

It is not a process which can be replicated on a forum such as this imo.

Don'tfeedthetroll may I make an observation? One line from your last post stood out...

I have been working up to sharing something very difficult I am going through and was hoping for honesty if I did but don?t feel safe now as I feel it will be misjudged. Can this thread have changed so much

This is exactly the kind of line my (and many others toxic parents) would say - is that what you meant by picking up certain traits from a disordered parent? It's a genuine observation; it just jumped out at me from the whole post.

Onward bound, hear hear!

We all have a duty imvho to examine our own adult behaviour, with appropriate support, so as to avoid/reduce likelihood of inflicting similar narcissistic behaviours from our birth families onto our own dc/dp.
However, this forum thread is not the place for others to challenge, however well-qualified, thats for face-to-face therapy,, again with support.

Very occasionally i have wondered about "the other side of the story" as i challenge my own self also SO much. However, it is not my place to comment like that. Who am i, a (supportive) stranger to presume to know about the RL situation faced by a poster???

Many of us need to let it all out sometimes- the vitriol, the anger, the sadness, the loss... and thats not going to be pretty...

I know there are some very vulnerable here, and in some ways I would include myself in that. To suggest this DFtT, or state in the way you have, to someone who is not sure of what was done to them, or to think it might be all 'a delusion' or series of, would be a tragedy (I think thats what you are suggesting, but you haven't confirmed). It did take me years and years of working this stuff out to realise what had happened to me was completely abnormal, and some that post here are still trying to establish this point for themselves, so what a dangerous thing to say, when the poster is in no position whatsoever to provide support after posting such an unprofessional opinion. This surely crosses fundamental rules around practicing as a psychotherapist.

New That is an excellent observation and yes, exactly the sort of thing I was talking about except my FOO don't say things like that so there is no echo there for me but that you picked it out from my post since it was something you experienced is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about but not so eloquently or with your brevity.
It has been close to the surface of my mind when I'm on this thread and each time I think 'do I write it now' and can't bring myself to and I feel in this case it was simply reflecting the disappointment I felt at being attacked by so many, assumptions and accusations. Those things rather felt more like my FOO. I accept my attempt at trying to soften what I was saying totally missed the mark and perhaps it would have benefited from straight talk rather than pussyfooting but I don't feel I was given the benefit of the doubt or any clarity gained from me before what seemed like a little group jumped on it.
That was what led to the sense of unsafeness and reconsideration to share. I'm sure no one here has to go too far to recall how cornered it felt when more than one person was accusing and belittling to remember how jumbled our thoughts become when we're triggered.
Excellent observation though.

I feel that its important to share how I've noticed that you lay the fault here, not with your posting, but clearly that wasn't received , which would be making it our [collective] responsibility then for having misinterpreted your post? You stand by your supposition that it was ok to try to say what you were trying to say?

I would really still appreciate why you refer to me as pri k ness

Fi

I would appreciate a respectful response direct on here please to my post, as your postings has been directed at everyone else's response so far (whilst mine remain unanswered ignored so far you have taken up others points and commended then for their insights and valuable observations, but I have asked you direct questions as a result of your posting, and yet you do not respond?!?!

Fi

you are very understanding how about we have all ' misinterpreted ' and then directly head off to say how you are now triggered and needing support, which is fine of itself, but this is actually about me and the posting you made about me, and how any of us would be ill advised to act on it?!?! Fi

I hope you are able to see that your last posting was all about you, instead and you are feeling?

ooops! that should have said 'all about you instead, and how you are feeling?

You asked for questions, I asked you and had no reply. In that posting you called me something pretty awful, I queried, no answer.

I don't belong to a 'little group' as you put it, and I cannot control the thoughts and feelings of others on here.

Your OP also made reference to something else too. A post that you had remembered and didn't seem to be happy about? Mixed with what followed it, plus the name you used for me, all add up to me needing to hear your explanation please.

I've not had any apology only silence and the suggestion that maybe I might prevent you bringing your vulnerabilities to the thread. I really struggle to believe that anyone here was intending to do that when they responded to yours in the ways that they did, and I certainly wasn't; I was only checking with you what you'd said and looking for clarification after the, what I can only describe now, as 'odd collection of words' were set out in that posting.

Fi

Can we take this discussion off thread now?

I know I'm new to stately homes but I wouldn't want new people to be put off joining, if they see all the recent posts. It needs to be a safe place for vulnerable people to share.

buildingmycorestrength how are you?

I don't think anyone responded to your last post. I wasn't in the right frame of mind yesterday to do so myself x

I have asked you direct questions as a result of your posting, and yet you do not respond?!?!

I responded to you here,

Oh dear, not my intention at all. This is rather triggering actually, reminds me of my FOO. There is a lot of assumption here. I reread my post and can understand how it has been misinterpreted. I didn?t have much time and attempted to make an observation as gently as I could but clearly that wasn?t received.
It was intended in the spirit I have received similar observations in the 5 years this thread has been going, for contemplation only. It would be very ill advised indeed to act on anything said on a public forum from strangers.
I?ll attempt to clarify. It seems characteristic of children of the abused to pick up certain traits from their disordered parents. An unskilled therapist will assume it?s the disorder itself but someone with insight will be able to tell the difference. If you have never had to wrestle with a trait learned in the disordered family that is absolutely fantastic and will make recovery infinitely easier but most people who come from disordered families do have some similar traits which can be ironed out. I trust that makes things clearer. If not I would appreciate further questions for you to gain clarity before jumping to conclusions. It?s terribly wounding to be so quickly and harshly judged, takes me right back to childhood.
These threads have always been supportive, but that support sometimes has come from having to face some truths which are not pleasant, after all if all we wanted was confirmation of how wonderful it all was there are other, less honest places to receive that.
I agree that it would not be professional to make a diagnosis from such little information, which is why none was made. I also notice posters not reading my original post and commenting but using respondents comments which contain assumptions as though what they say is fact. I changed careers a couple of years ago and mention it solely to support the observation in case it seemed to come from left field. I am not here in a professional capacity. I have been working up to sharing something very difficult I am going through and was hoping for honesty if I did but don?t feel safe now as I feel it will be misjudged. Can this thread have changed so much.

Since more than just you addressed me my response had to be inclusive.

I would really still appreciate why you refer to me as pri k ness

English is not my first language but as I understand it this truncation is a diminutive, since I very much understood what I was trying to convey was exceptionally sensitive I thought using the diminutive would soften it (and we all know how that turned out??..) and you would understand that I was coming from a place of identity, I have had to wrestle those demons too. I sense this is not welcome and also, clearly it was way off the mark. In hindsight it might even have conveyed better had I not mentioned my former profession but that too was meant to soften it, I thought it would sound a little better if I could back it up not just randomly say it.

Your subsequent posts were rhetorical, I found they either cherry picked from my post or were attacks. I?m not making a judgement on that just saying there was no response to be made.

I might prevent you bringing your vulnerabilities to the thread. Good heavens no, absolutely not You are not responsible for my feelings. No, no, no, that is not what I said. Don?t think that for a moment. But it is true I am feeling attacked from many quarters, had the conversation been between you and I it would have felt different, more equal and no, you are not responsible for other posters but the whole pack thing is very unsettling when it?s oneself on the end of it. In truth I feel very rattled by it but I?m just trying to sort everything out and don?t want to disappear without resolution. I?m sure you can understand how unsafe that does feel and why I won?t be sharing but I never laid blame anywhere.

I just came back to see if there were any more original observations or questions as I did not want to leave the thread upset. That certainly wasn?t my intention and I will never post again when I cannot read my posts back before sending.

Ok,i think we need to start a new stately thread now...

Yes, the thread is getting de-railed This isn't the spirit of stately homes.

Please can you both resolve this off thread by pm? Or both walk away until you cool off?

Yes let's start a new thread. Posters on here have enough to cope with without having to read this!!!!

I read the first post in this thread and sat with my mouth agape. Every one of those retorts has come from my mother's mouth. Even now, 3500miles away she is making my life a misery.

Why can't I have the strength to just cut her off?

But many come here as it is the Stately Homes thread. Can I support this particular issue being resolved off thread. DTFF, I apologise if I upset you by calling you on your post. Fi, I wanted to show you support.

We are all feeling vulnerable having been attacked in various ways by our families. Let's remember that we do all support each other and hear each other. I find the thread incredibly helpful, even if it's painful and prickly at times.

for my part I am very sorry and would hate to think I had taken any part in derailing.. please don't on my account. You have not upset me atall fresh I just wanted to query the 3 points made in the posting as I had been called that before and Laughed Out Loud at on another posting made to me under the name prikness by DFtT

Sorry all for my part in responding to this, really sorry, and I am truly upset to have caused any hurts to any fellow Stately Homers Fi

Blottedcopybook - it's a scary, big moment, that penny dropping. Have a look at some of the links in the first post, too.

It's not about you not having strength. You have already put up with so much more than most. It's about rewriting some of the myths you've been told since you were small. There's plenty of help available here whenever you want to share.

please don't on my account meaning... remove the thread, or start another.

and to DFtT would hate to think also of you feeling the need to leave the support on here due to being upset over this, if you really felt that you could always NC and share the important stuff that you want to work through on here, as it would seem a shame to not have this valuable resource for yourself? Fi

DFtT please do PM if you wanted to

Blotted I thought it took enormous strength to cut mine off, but also maybe it was more the distressing point it had got to. I don't believe anyone here that has done it has found it anything but a lengthy and difficult separation to make, but nodding with fmnots about 'rewriting the myths' as now realise it was far more about being really aware of what was happening (which the myths cloud so very well), but you sound to be starting that journey of looking at those myths now. I wish you luck for your journey Fi

Blotted - I think - like in abusive relationships with men - you suddenly reach the brick wall, your limit, the THAT'S ENOUGH!! moment. One day, quite unexpectedly you will snap over a relatively small issue & go NC & the adrenaline & anger will carry you forward. My moment was my mother hassling me to go & shampoo their carpets over a 2 week period when I have 4 kids, work as a midwife, was going through a marriage breakdown & when I asked her why she didn't ask my brother (single, no kids, works in an office mon-fri 9-5) she said "oh no, I couldn't ask him - he's SO busy & works SO hard!" SNAP!! No contact since!!