"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Hissy isn't it AWFUL when emails somehow go to your spam filter too? These little glitches are very frustrating for ranty narcissists trying to contact

Shocking forgetmenots, happens all too frequently so I hear....

My Abusive Ex used to despair at the unreliability of the mobile phone service when we lived abroad... It seemed that the signal was particularly bad between our phones...

I suppose if I went NC, I know it would totally break everything. Like all Narc's, she would just become the victim. Also she often threatens that she will become 'ill' if you disagree/voice an opinion etc. I've had that hanging over me all my life.

Also the DC's would miss out on GP's. DH's family live 300 miles away and are fairly disinterested. I have no other family whatsoever, so I worry the DC's will be isolated. Although on the flip side I do worry about her behaviour around the DC's. Nothing sinister, but just the drip, drip, drip of a Narc. DS is 3 and yet when she see's him she has to constantly point out what she has bought him. (mainly cheap crap) So it's, "Oh, are they the socks that Nanny bought you?" or "Are they the sweets Nanny bought you?". Yeah, you bought a pair of socks. Big deal. You nearly managed to sabotage his 3rd birthday party last month though.

What a great 'Nanny' you are.

Sorry, I am so angry.

Hissy, I think your ideas are really useful. I need to learn to not treat her phone calls like anyone else's. She will try to hurt/manipulate me etc. So I need to try for damage limitation. I suppose I am still in that place where I still hold out for a conversation with her where she becomes the Mother I always wanted...

CHRIST!!!! I never heard that before! Where did that come from fresh?

We're taught very young that questioning the central lie (that their needs must come before everyone else's) will result in some unspecified disaster. It's this threat that keeps us in line, for years.

I did; I got married so that I could legitimately leave home although I was in love and not just using the guy, but he did use me, as a punch bag (I knew that anything else would be received as rejection by her).

But then later, when all the sulks and nastiness and demands and blames came to a peak, I was frozen from reacting by the thought that she would have a nervous breakdown. When it got so bad that I thought I couldn't cope anymore then I acted and went completely NC. SHE HAD A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN.

Another revelation, a truth found only here, there doesn't seem to be anyone else understands. take that as a positive, not negative! it was so bad, its not now that I hear this stuff and have these recognitions fom others here.

Sorry I cannot stop to give offers of suport to others right now, I have been reading, and welcome all the new posters to keep posting. Fi

The biggest lasting legacy my father has left me, is this paranoia about no one liking me, just tolerating me. That I'm not a likeable person and that I'm dull.

I began a new job in October and I work closely with 3 women, two a lot younger than me and I cannot shake the fact that I'm convinced they do not like me and talk about me behind my back. It's this niggling feeling and it won't go. It's awful. I'm dreading work tomorrow. I don't know how to shift it. I've tried logic.

I read the link the other day and I do half of those things as an adult now, at least. It's such a lasting legacy. Will I ever be free of it?

I have trouble making friends anyway. I prefer my own company but then I get lonely sometimes. The effort of making and retaining friendships is exhausting.

It doesn't help that I was bullied all through School, as well as my Dads verbal and physical abuse at home and of course Mum enabling it and also speaking negative things over me.

I sometimes catch myself doing similar with my DCs and hate myself for it and then go off and cry. I try so hard to be different but it's so hard. I know I'm nothing like them. I apologise to my DCs for starters and use time outs. But I suppose it's all linked to my self loathing. I can never see the positives in me. The glass is always half empty when I look at the world as well.

I don't know why I'm typing this. Think I need a good cry

Sorry it was Jess's link on the 9th I was referring to. It covers a list of behaviour or problems we can struggle with after, due to their abuse.

Feeling a bit sad.

Does anybody ever feel like what you have been through with your family affects your relationship with your husband or partner or is this just me? I feel I am a Bit needy and nothing he says ever makes me feel better. I think is my relationship in trouble or is it past feelings with my family spoiling things. One thing is for sure. I don't feel I have any support from my parents and sisters. No one to turn to. It's a lonely life sometimes. I feel angry that I don't have my mum to turn to as I never know what her 'agenda' is. I can't trust her. I just feel like if I had my parents and siblings to turn to then I would be happier. Maybe I'm looking for them to make me feel happier, even if they were loving I'd feel the same but somehow I feel my anger is all linked to my family, unless it's just an excuse and really I'm depressed.

One of the harderst things I'm struggling to come to terms with is my mum has put all the efforts in to destroy my relationship with my younger sister, she still lives at home and I am so resentful. There's nothing I can do. She fills her head with crap, whenever she feels like it. Shes always played us off against one another, mainly me and older sister and older sister is quite jealous and some of that is because of mum and she's doing the same with my younger sister. I'm so bitter about it. Due to her being so much younger I was like a mother figure to her growing up and it doesn't seem fair. When it comes down to it she's already admitted that if I fall out with her then it will effect my relationship with my little sister because ' she will know what's happened " I said how will she know if you don't say anything she says " well she will see" I think it's more of a threat really as I know she will tell her things. It's just bullying really.

My sister is rude to me, stroppy and generally mean. She behaves like my mum really. I just think why, why after all I have been nice, loving etc then I'm left with this. All I want is to have a caring positive friendship with her.

I'm left so insecure, self worth shot at and feel a needy person, who doesn't think anybody likes me. Worry so much. I feel like leaving my marriage and being on my own as as much as he tries to understand he will never feel this pain or understand it properly. He gets on with his family. If I'm on my own I wont have to ruin anyone else's life because I am a needy pathetic mess. I don't know how much attention off my husband I should get or does that sound stupid too.

Also I am worried I am like my mother. Sometimes when I say things it feels like its my mum not me. All the things I didn't want her to be I am becoming. Bitter, sometimes envious. Angry.
Thanks for your time.

Sorry you are going through this bedtime
The honest answer is yes us dhs & dws of toxic's children do feel the tension caused by the family's behaviour.

My dh comes from a family of narcs, and sometimes he will be withdrawn & depressed, i do find it frustrating as he puts up with so much shit from them, yet treats me like crap after them contacting him, ie swearing, shouting, sulking, shouting at dc, the depression etc.

Although i don't know what it feels like to be him, all i have is sympathy because i know they treat him so badly & play mind games with him, when all he wants is approval & love from them.

Leaving him, however hard it sometimes is wouldn't happen as i love him and can see that his behaviour is a result of the way he has been parented & the further we get down the line, progress has been made. He isn't ready for nc yet, but i know it's only a matter of time before this happens.
So far he has already stopped visiting them as often, he only sees them about once every 3 months now & answering the phone/texts to them is minimal.

Don't leave your dh, it's what your parents will want!
If he loves you he will help you through this, please don't feel alone, talk to him and tell him how they are making you feel.
I thinking talking is always a good thing.

Thanks pumpkin, I've had hardly any sleep. Me and husband had argument last night. Thing is even the slightest negative comment I take it personally. It hits me really hard, real rejection and I find it hard to drop it. Makes me s insecure.

I don't have many people around me, my family that are generally play mind games with mum as ringleader/ in middle of the drama. I wonder wether it's the insecurity because of my family that makes me react so badly in even small crossed words. Does your husband ever say he's leaving because I do. I have this urge to just go, I get so down. I sometimes shut down too and act emotionally cold like as though I don't care about him. It's like a defence mechanism.

I hate it that my family just take the piss out of me. I give and give obviously never enough then they make me feel bad. I Don't give the same anymore like I've withdrawn a bit, but then I'm left feeling not a nice person for withdrawing from them.
I'm also worried I have some of there traits too. I don't know if I'll ever be happy. I just can't seem to be happy no matter what I have.

My young sister doesn't seem to care and it breaks my heart.

I feel like mum and dad don't care at all. I just want them too. There never there for me.

PrincessFi I don't know where it came from, probably out of my therapy but it may have been somewhere in 'Trapped in the Mirror' which I read a few years ago. Recognising that central lie was my lightbulb moment. Therapy allowed me to realise that the way I was treated was wrong, and it wasn't my fault, I didn't deserve it, no child does. It took a long time to process that but from there I was able to treat it as a lie, and that my 'truth' is different.

As children, we need to know our mothers are there to protect us. When they use that trust to get what they want - "I'll leave/die (it's all the same to a small child) unless you make me happy" it gets hard-wired. We invest a lot in trying to please her, so that she will stay, and maybe even love us. On some level we know it's wrong, but it's so ingrained that we can find sophisticated ways around it. Hence "but she's my mother", "It's easier just to give in" "But she's old", "But they took me to stately homes"(sorry, couldn't resist).

Siblings collude unless they've done the work in therapy too - why would they not, they're still living on the basis that unless they toe the line, catastrophe occurs. Bedtime this sounds like your siblings - does it help to know that you're just further along in your recovery than they are? That you can see the truth but they're too scared to, and so they're still desperately trying to get your mother's approval by being her stormtroopers?

I still find I'm expecting someone to judge me, and I transfer that onto lots of people who are probably just as confused about life as I am. It still holds me back. And some days I still believe I am what my sisters used to accuse me of: lazy, shallow, selfish, vain, pointless. But actually I'm just a human: fallible, trying to do my best, not always succeeding. Just living, really.

Blimey, sorry, don't know where that lot came from. I'll go and lie down!

My problems have been going on for many years, sought counselling about 5 years ago. My mother is cold, distant, mocking, unable to show affection, blah blah blah.

My counsellor suggested more communication which I have worked on as she always makes vague plans and then either cancels or just doesnt show.

Last year she said she was spending Boxing Day with us and then upped and left. This year I confirmed (big communication) that she was def with us on Boxing Day. Boxing Day morning I said I was cooking salmon for lunch. Her reply "I wont be here, I am meeting people in the pub for lunch". I didnt mask my disappointment like I normally would as I am fed up with her. She had her stuff by the front door at 10am so I suggested she leave as she was all ready to go. More or less shoved her out the door.

I have spoken to her once briefly since then, we have exchanged Christmas thank you letters but I am fed up with her toxicity.

She has quite a complex personality, she doesnt seem to like anyone, is constantly bitchy about anyone and everyone. She isnt interested in our company. She seems to look down at everyone. She has never told me she loves me (I am 45 and I am still waiting).

Whether or not she gets pleasure from her treatment of me I have no idea.

So now the guilt has set in as it is about time I rang her but I really dont want to (she is 81 and fit and healthy).

thank you Fresh its really striking how reading other posts trigger more memories; this one just now was when I was told to get out (at 17) but because I did my mother took to her bed for days on end taking drugs and being the receiver of everyone's concern and sympathies because I had been so cruel and awful to her (this is where I might possibly have got the idea she'd have a NB if I went NC), I was still trying to call her and it make me ill staying away feeling that it was all my fault. I lost everything then. Was there a specific therapy you would recommend for this? (as I think its difficult to find recognition of this syndrome).

There may be something in there for you bedtime - the everyone rallying around her whilst she drips evil into their [siblings/family] ears about me and how awful I am. It is the way for all in this situation it seems, sadly. Yes I reckon you (and I) probably have got depressed or developed some unheathly strategies along the way, but you are the one (and I) worrying about our own part in this and trying to seek change, understand and move on - as I understand it, they don't! take care.

Fi

Fi...and your post has brought back another memory for me too! My dad used to go and visit his family periodically, but mum never spoke to any of them (shock) and hated him going. One time he asked me to go with him bribed me as my grandmother was in a nursing home and he didn't like going alone. As he was letting me drive (it was quite a long way) I agreed. Mother went mad, wouldn't speak to either of us, and when we got back she was paraletic (she doesn't drink) passing out and incontinent!!! All because she didn't want us visiting his own mother (my grandmother who incidentally was in her 90s and had Alzheimer's!) All attention back on her as Dad had to carry her upstairs, clean her up, and put her to bed. I remember even then, as I was about 19, how pathetic that was, and how controlling and to be honest it disgusted me and still does.

I had therapy a few years ago as training for my own job (I'm a hypnotherapist) and during the course of that therapy I kept recalling being a little girl and being afraid of the bathroom door...in my mind I could see it but couldn't open it. Eventually my mind allowed me to go through and I recalled seeing her laying in the bath with the water all red - she had cut her wrists and it was left to her little daughter to find her. I questioned this memory until I covertly looked at her wrists and noticed a scar on each!

Jeez...(starts rocking backwards and forwards)...

Sounds like those are trauma memories, some of the things people have been posting.

I had PTSD and learned to recognise when I was reliving a trauma. The memories are quite different than normal memories, very vivid and multifaceted.

There are specific methods for dealing with those that are more useful than just talking it out. Saved my life.

Fuck! Patches! That poor little girl that you were!

PrincessFi I don't have a specific recommendation. I just sat in a chair and talked for 50 minutes each week for the best part of 4 years, until we worked it out. I don't think my therapist ever even gave my mum a label, she just worked on the basis that I had been badly treated and helped me start my recovery. It wasn't CBT and there was no hypnosis, it was just a long (but life-saving) process!

Have been reading the thread and older ones and sniffling about how similar so much of this is to my childhood. Not ready to post yet, but wanted to thank you all for showing me that I'm not alone, also for letting my DH see that I'm not.

DftT I'm not sure I understand atall what you are saying here, if I can be so brave? What is it that you call 'hit and run'?

... and I claimed 'some expertise' to someone who was being quite helpful, can you expand?

I am thinking you might be saying that what i'm experiencing are delusions, and I am disordered and I have to look at my own behaviours rather than the traumas I suffered in the past? Have I read that right?

Fi

Dontfeed I think that's a very ill-advised post. Telling another poster that they are deluded and have unacceptable habits is out of line when you don't know them or their situation. You can't extrapolate from what people post here, there isn't the space for every person to give every single detail of their lives and so you can't know their situation fully. This is a safe, supportive place and needs to stay that way.

... and why the Pri k ness?

I am also concerned that a qualified psychoanalyst would think it professional to suggest such a diagnosis in this way. A better way might have been to enquire whether I actually 'ran' away after discovering what each different therapy had to offer, as that would seem fairly key, if I am understanding your assertions correctly here.

I am imagining 'newly' qualified myself...?

I would hope an experienced psychotherapist wouldn't attempt to diagnose and treat an individual on the basis of a post on an anonymous forum.

And then attempt to deliver this 'support' in such a direct and open way, being as it is readily accessible to anyone reading this thread.

And lastly, but very importantly, particularly when they have not entered into a therapeutic contract with the person in which they are engaging, ie the person is not their client, they are not in a confidential safe environment and the support was not asked for.

DFTT I would suggest you discuss this with your supervisor and perhaps ask for your post to be deleted.