Is the media stealing my sex life?

[DeirdreOfTheSorrows]

I've name-changed, because this is about sex and feelings and personal stuff and I'm probably pretty identifiable in my normal guise. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, either - but it's been on my mind for a while and I wonder whether anyone might be able to shed some light on it for me. I wonder whether I ought to have posted it in Feminism, too! But let's see how we go.

For a good few years now I've been feeling that my increasing awareness of of porn culture, and media stories about violence, sexual violence and cruelty of all sorts, are impinging on my ability to feel comfortable and secure in my own sexuality. I've never experienced violence myself, and porn hasn't been an issue in any of my relationships, so it's not a flashback type of situation - simply that my associations with sex are increasingly becoming mixed up with nasty and upsetting stories and ideas rather than my own (probably rather tame) experience.

Just as background, I wouldn't ever have thought of myself as a competitive sadder - I think I've got a pretty realistic idea about the way in which certain stories gain currency and play out in the media, and I think I can distinguish between empathy for a tragic or terrible situation and getting caught up in an emotional binge.

But for some reason I'm really struggling to maintain a sense of my own sexual self in the face of story after story of sexual violence or exploitation or coercion. It's as if I can't find the kind of easy lustiness I had when I was younger any more, and my brain can't switch off from stories about other people's dreadful experiences, or my political feelings about pornification, or MN threads in which people have shared how sex was used as a weapon against them, even though I'm in a relationship where sex should be perfectly safe and equal and unproblematic.

I really don't know what to do about this. One can't just stop knowing these things, and withdrawing from engaging with them would seem to be a dreadful cop-out. But how do I find a way to regain some innocence and spontaneity about my own sex life, rather than letting it be overshadowed by things which should be a political, rather than an emotional, part of my life?

Offred, what you say is true. But the point of the British Crime Survey is that it compares like with like over time. It would seem to me that if anything, the fact of women tolerating DV and not even recognising it as such would have been even more true 20 years ago than it is now, wouldn't it? So a reported reduction in DV over that time would still be meaningful (especially as the size of the reduction being reported is very large - it leaves a fair margin for error.)

Anyhow I'm certainly not trying to suggest that hidden or unrecognised DV is not a terrible problem and must be addressed by all means possible. Only that if one is going to formulate theories about how certain social phenomena are likely to affect widespread behaviour over time, it's worth checking against the available facts, to see whether things are ACTUALLY turning out that way.

It can happen that a theory seems so inevitably correct that we don't bother to do this. But sometimes it can rest on false assumptions, or just focus on one issue so much that it fails to take into account something else, which in practice changes everything. This is particularly so when the issue is an emotive one, like this. It can encourage tunnel vision.

I certainly agree that that stuff about porn pressure on teenage girls is truly shocking.

I feel the same way - just going to read last page and hope there are some answers.

I have no desire at all for sex at the moment. I just can't get my head in the right place. Not that I have a partner, just really not wanting it, even if I could. Can't help the niggle in the back of my mind that I could be anyone, really, and he could actually be imagining someone else. Then you have the whole battle that he will probably leave at some point for a younger model so why put yourself through it all? I am only 31 :(

Have decided if I do go for a man, I need one who can DO something - make things out of wood or play an instrument really well; actually have a big talent as otherwise I seem to just see them as a variation of a household pet (messy, slightly smelly, demanding and usually not helpful) who seem to expect regular sex or they will be off with the secretary.

And we all know, even the 'nice' ones watch porn. Which usually leads to lies by the man. Which leads to further insecurities for the woman and feelings of shame and possible persecution for the man, and on it goes...

And I haven't been married but I have been cheated on before.

I don't agree that sexual abuse or dv is more recognised now than then. My point is only that statistics can't help you with this, the BCS is pretty meaningless, you are attempting to draw meaning from it not me.

Sorry, more recognised by the victim that should be...

Gosh, ATourchofInsanity, you must have known some pretty awful men :( Not all of them watch porn, demand sex and leave for younger women. There are some nice, piano-playing, non-porn-watching, shelf-putting-up men around too!

Really interesting thread, by the way.

Yes actually, I think I have known some pretty horrid men. My first real bf cheated on me with his adopted step sister - highly traumatic when I was doing my GCSE's (weirdly I never questioned why he said things like "urgh, imagine shagging Steph*, it'd be like shagging an ironing board"), just didn't click. Next long term b.f at 19 I was completely controlled - he was older, wouldn't let me buy new clothes, refused to pay for basic work around the house (no hot water or heating for 11 months because he insisted on doing it himself - of course he could nip to his parent's for a bath every day). FFWD 4 years and it turns out he was into scat porn. I had never heard of or seen it. Figured it out fairly quickly but couldn't connect it with him. We were engaged and he had never asked for anything like this; yet clearly this was what he wanted. Our PC recorded 4yrs of him looking at NOTHING 'normal' just this scat porn. He denied it then admitted it stating 'porn is like cannabis, you try it, like it and then move on to harder things'. It took me a long time to get over and eat anything in public .
So yes, I had a massive hate hate affair with porn even back then, when some men possibly still hadn't seen it :( But as the years go on I have to believe that men going that far is not the norm. However, the basic premise is all the same. Women are easy to pick up put down/doesn't matter what her head looks like so much/don't ask her any questions/she wants it, they all want it really

Draining.

My poor DD. I can only imagine how this is all going to play out for them. I really hope there is an angry revolution, I just can't see it through all they lycra and lamee and fake tits in my face. If only women could stand together and fight, rather than be twisted by all of the advertising hype on how we need to compete to be 'best' in mens eyes. I can just see modern day Bodicca standing triumphant to lead us to battle and some little brat sniggering that she has cellulite and the whole thing collapsing in a hair pulling match.

Have stopped watching TV altogether. Watch select things on iplayer.

I realise that in that immoderate screed I have conflated two things which I am wondering are at the root of my feeling so without desire: one, the anger towards my actual DP, and the other, a more generalised anger and disgust for the way it seems, from mainstream culture, men think about women. And a passionate shuddering desperate need to have no part of it.
They aren't entirely separate though of course.

I feel entirely stuck now. I feel at a terrible cross roads. I feel as if to "come clean" about how I feel would cause a lot of things to come crashing down about my head and would be destructive to my children. I also feel that there is no point in all this waffly counselling and occasional desperate gp visits and a series of mini breakdowns with the proverbial life of quiet desperation in between, unless I am prepared to face up to what is making me so furious. Feeling like a domestic appliance. Feeling like the dustbin at which anything someone else doesn't want to do is thrown. Feeling the exhaustion and the deadness at not being able to do anything at all that will nourish me.
sex is a sad thing to think about because when I used to have boyfriends (as opposed to a partner) sex was one of the things that was rich, brilliant, outside the workaday life, something special, something for me. Now it feels like it is a duty I can't bear to do, another thing that is for Them.

I am wondering if not having to use imagination will be shown to be highly damaging for parts of the male brain in a few years time. Maybe porn use will increase Alzheimer's, for example.

Although I guess they all still imagine using their dream car/TV/Stereo/latest expensive gadget, so maybe not quite as retarded as made out by people who say porn is a necessity to facilitate.

I worry about this more for my sons than myself.

I feel being a mother of boys it is a huge responsibility to give them the correct information about sex. I feel almost stressed about " getting my message across" before they see too much porn. I can foresee some uncomfortable conversations, oldest is 10, I can only just imagine what he will be exposed to via easy mobile internet access.

I do not have a problem with boobie mags, playboy etc., I do not even think that is porn. But so much stuff is abusive really, it is a worry.

I feel sorry for the internet generation, and the effect porn has and will have on their love life. I am afraid the only option is for me to become that mum who insists on talking to her mortified teens about porn and sex, and not just about that but I want to make them think about what it really is, what it's effect is, the exploitation behind it. Not a blanket ban, but acknowledging it is there, it is easy to access, and talk about it all, rather than allowing them to become furtive mindless consumers of violence against women.

Yay. Pfffff, no I will not back out of that one.

I think it might be useful to seperate out porn itself, from pornified society. Two different but connected issues.

Society really is hypersexualised, and that the sex that's hyped is the mechanistic purely physical road to one's own orgasm. A very selfish, traditionally the Big He Man version of sex. It's out of balance.

Sex is a very personal thing, and a shared thing, and surely the way to learn about one's own boundaries, expectations, emotional responses etc is by experimenting and doing with someone who has Good Intentions (of whatever kind) towards you.

But we're increasingly told that we ought to be taking out cues from observation and outsiders, the problem is this society has restricted sex to a solely physical thing, and has no advice really but a list of props and fetishes to get oneself off.

Also, I may be rambling now, but do you think people need a sense of taboo, or forbiddenness to really get off? Is it just a product of 2000yrs + of JudeoChristianity, with the particular quirks certain Bronze age Mediteranean tribes grown deep and wide?

There's feck all forbidden now of course, so what will that lead to?

It does seem odd to me when the Jimmy Saville story is quoted as a sign of our over sexualised and misogynistic times. Surely the whole point of the story is that behaviour that passed unchallenged at the time is now viewed as absolutely unacceptable and is causing a major scandal. And that children who had no ability to defend themselves against predation because they did not have the knowledge and nobody would listen to them. Now people are listening- is that a slur on our present generation?

I am somebody who was very nearly abused as a child because I literally did not know what those words meant. I am very glad that that, at least, is not something that would happen to one of my children; they wouldn't go stumbling into a situation like mine through sheer ignorance. And if something did happen, they would know who to approach and they would have the words to explain what had happened to them. Does this mean society has become more exploitative? I am not so sure.

Apparently at least one Western government seriously debated whether to legalise paedophilia in the 60s. You wouldn't find a politician who would risk his career life making that suggestion today.

Not sure we should shoot the messenger really.

The Rochdale, North Wales, Jersey and Wrexham child abuse scandals have happened in 'our times' though. Many commentators believe that the Jimmy Savile case is a mere tip of the iceberg. It would be comforting to think none of this could happen again, but disenfranchised women and children will continue to be unprotected and disbelieved because of men in power (with their own secrets and allegiances) closing ranks and shutting lines of inquiry down.

Loris the problem with using the British Crime Survey to track changes is that in 2004, the classifications altered dramatically in relation to DV and violence against women and girls. Women's Aid also say that because the BCS caps DV attacks at 5 per victim, the true number of assaults could be 140% higher than shown.

Nevertheless, the statistics tell us that each year, 1 million women suffer male violence in the UK and that the group most likely to suffer sexual assault are women aged 16-19. Nearly 75 per cent of women in this age bracket reported that they had experienced emotional violence from partners and over 75 per cent of girls with an older partner (in particular a "much older" one) reported that they had experienced physical violence. Because of the increase in violent crime suffered by teenagers in their relationships, set against a backdrop of decreasing crime generally, there has been investment in detection and prosecution hence the increase in prosecutions - but less investment in the cause of the problem and addressing some men's violence towards women and girls.

WRT to raising sons Chandon, I agree that parental guidance is essential, but with our sons their Dad took the senior role in that. It's often far more powerful for a male role model to discuss porn, respectful sexual relationships and consent issues. If boys realise their Dad doesn't use porn and treats women and girls with respect and dignity, it's a head start.

Because of the increase in violent crime suffered by teenagers in their relationships, set against a backdrop of decreasing crime generally...

Where do you get this increase from?

I get that you don't accept the evidence I've produced of a decrease, and don't really want to labour the point any more. It was kind of tangential to the OP which was more about personal feelings anyway. And your point about the BCS changes is a valid one.

But you've produced no evidence whatsoever for this increase that you just insist exists. You've referenced one article about increased prosecutions of men for violence against women, but even that article itself doesn't attempt to claim that the reason for that is increased violence against women.

There's a massive circular argument here: Porn must increase violence against women; and there must be more violence against women because there's more porn.

I don't want to negate any of the very valid and heartfelt personal stories related here by the OP and others, which deserve our deepest respect and consideration. But on the issue of wider social developments and how they compare to the past, you can't expect us to accept that things are moving a particular way because you say so.

speech by Keir Starmer

Sorry, should have cited earlier.

FWIW if I can offer my own (male) experience on this subject (these subjects - seem to be wide-ranging).

I have used porn sites in the past - partner has isolated me and I was basically very lonely and confused. For me they were a release when my self-esteem was at its lowest. They don't reject you and they don't have any emotional involvement, but for me they have nothing to do with my real life. I'm not excusing the behaviour but at the time they offered some comfort.

They can be addictive and they certainly desensitised me but for me that was part of the aim. At times real life was just too much to bear. But of course it's a completely unsatisfying situation.

My point I think is that there are probably a lot of men (and possibly women) out there who access these sites/read these books because they are consumed by self-esteem issue and are very lonely. That's an equally dark place but it's not necessarily an issue of misogyny/hated/violence in all circumstances.

Dippingatoe - rather than deliberately desensitising yourself, and deliberately taking yourself away from the situation of your relationship, why wouldn't you talk to your partner and try to fix things, or leave? Do you honestly think that your (already suffering partner) would be pleased to realise you were lusting after and pleasuring yourself to younger, sexier and sluttier women/men?

If I were having a bad time in my relationship and discovered that THAT was how my husband 'helped' the situation, I would leave him faster than he could apologise!

But loris asking us to accept what you say just because you say so is exactly what you are doing. BCS showed a decrease in the numbers of women reporting dv. That is the only thing you can say, it is your interpretation that this is a reliable indication of falling levels of actual dv because surely people can more easily report dv now, which is not what BCS says. It is evidence of a decrease in self reports of dv to BCS, that's all.

Cory- this is coming out now because saville is dead and so the institutions which protected him as a powerful celebrity don't need to protect him anymore and the victims won't be sued for defamation also I think the average time for recognising sexual abuse after it happens is 16 years so it isn't uncommon for people to not even recognise what happened to them for many years.

I wouldn't take that as a sign of a safer and better society now, although it may be true I don't think the savile thing is evidence at all.

Atouchofinsanity - thank you for that post. Like you, I hope for revolution but can't see how to make it happen.

dippingatoe - your post makes me furious. "partner has isolated me" - I admit I don't know you and that could mean absolutely anything, but to me it triggers memories of whiney, greedy, babyish "men" who think each sodding one deserves a woman physically available to them with no emotional physical or intellectual needs of her own. "partner has isolated me". Ugh. I am imagining my exes saying that about me when I was a. bereaved and grieving, b. studying hard for exams while working full time and managing a house, c. struggling with major depression and other health issues, and in all cases, unable physically to sleep with snoring selfish gropey financially incapable greedy boozy men who think it is their god-given right to have a soft body in the bed with them and don't give a shit that you can't sleep and won't let you go to the sofa and say "go to the dr. get some pills" and look back at the tv and have another fucking can and light another fucking fag.

"partner has isolated me".Why, dippingatoe, did your partner "isolate" you? What were her needs? Do you know? Why were you so unable to meet them that she felt better alone? Were you unable or unwilling to meet them? or do you simply not know what they were?

Maybe porn sites should come with a mental health warning? Something along the lines of:
WARNING: Desensitization of real life can occur whilst and after watching pornography. The actors in this clip are playing a part and relate in no way to any real people. Frequent use of pornography can cause relationship and erectile difficulties.

Both of the above are excellent posts (lostconfusedwhatnext and touchofinsanity). I totally agree with both of you.

Something I just read that I thought might make some people feel better - at least the media are sometimes facing up to what is wrong with all of the falseness in society:
www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9633359/Why-beauty-is-rarely-worth-it.html

Lostconfusedwhatnext- he probably should have said but he has recently discovered/they have confronted that his wife is a lesbian.

I do agree that she didn't isolate him, the situation meant he was isolated sexually but I think this is something he also chose to accept maybe because of the pressure of trying to keep the family together/stay married...

Be kind though, he's having a tough time and ultimately there will be ways he has contributed to his own misery (like we all do) but I don't think he is to blame for his lesbian wife not wanting sex with him and not speaking to him about her feelings for so long and I have respect that he appears not to have been a sex pest!!

Oh ok I didn't know that about dippingatoe and it must be very difficult but I still don't think that a man has a right to sex with a woman and if he doesn't get it he is a tragic victim who is turning to porn out of necessity.
I freely admit that I don't know anything about him and I am reacting to men I have known rather than him though

by the way I think that article about beauty is a complete red herring. It makes no acknowledgement of the requirement of women to be performatively sexy (as opposed to beautiful) and the accompanying climate in which sexy is also to be humiliated. In fact it directly opposes sexy against beautiful and privileges the former, citing that mega-creep Gainsbourg as some sort of connoisseur, euch. It's basically saying "don't worry if you don't have a pretty face, you can still amuse a man and accommodate his cock, which is the main thing"