Is the media stealing my sex life?

[DeirdreOfTheSorrows]

I've name-changed, because this is about sex and feelings and personal stuff and I'm probably pretty identifiable in my normal guise. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, either - but it's been on my mind for a while and I wonder whether anyone might be able to shed some light on it for me. I wonder whether I ought to have posted it in Feminism, too! But let's see how we go.

For a good few years now I've been feeling that my increasing awareness of of porn culture, and media stories about violence, sexual violence and cruelty of all sorts, are impinging on my ability to feel comfortable and secure in my own sexuality. I've never experienced violence myself, and porn hasn't been an issue in any of my relationships, so it's not a flashback type of situation - simply that my associations with sex are increasingly becoming mixed up with nasty and upsetting stories and ideas rather than my own (probably rather tame) experience.

Just as background, I wouldn't ever have thought of myself as a competitive sadder - I think I've got a pretty realistic idea about the way in which certain stories gain currency and play out in the media, and I think I can distinguish between empathy for a tragic or terrible situation and getting caught up in an emotional binge.

But for some reason I'm really struggling to maintain a sense of my own sexual self in the face of story after story of sexual violence or exploitation or coercion. It's as if I can't find the kind of easy lustiness I had when I was younger any more, and my brain can't switch off from stories about other people's dreadful experiences, or my political feelings about pornification, or MN threads in which people have shared how sex was used as a weapon against them, even though I'm in a relationship where sex should be perfectly safe and equal and unproblematic.

I really don't know what to do about this. One can't just stop knowing these things, and withdrawing from engaging with them would seem to be a dreadful cop-out. But how do I find a way to regain some innocence and spontaneity about my own sex life, rather than letting it be overshadowed by things which should be a political, rather than an emotional, part of my life?

Janelikesjam: That show's a comedy, not a serious documentary (whether or not any individual finds it funny, the intention is satirical, not an accurate depiction of teenagers).

As to 'Waa, waa, people shouldn't look at porn' - Sex (apart from TTC sex) is a recreational activity that interests some people more than others. If an individual is particularly keen on a recreational activity (such as sport, music, painting) that individual is generally interested in seeing how others do it. While you can engage in such recreational activities with the minimum of equipment and/or skills, if it's something you like you are probably going to want to spend more money on things that will help you in the pursuit, and study the techniques of others.

Spectacularly missing the point there sgb. Porn doesn't teach you anything about sex. Also no-one was saying "waa waa people shouldn't look at porn" Deirdre was saying the porn for women by women stuff is not helpful or effective.

Not healthy proper sexual relationships.

Couldn't we just stop trying to see sex only in terms of an external, visual, stimulus, and start trying to place more emphasis on developing and giving status to the kinds of imaginative and emotional interpersonal skills that would help people genuinely connect with the actual person they happen to be in bed with

Why are women socialised in some way to want "emotional" sex? I find what SGB says really interesting because I don't think "emotional" and one sexual partner for life are really very natural. It became normative because men sought to control women's fertility and therefore be assured of a child's progeny. Where does this emotional aspect come into it, at what point did women make emotional demands upon their partners? because they needed male protection, protection from what? From my understanding men realised that the best way to keep women in order was to confer fear and protection in equal measure. It was realised that if women were to ever be faithful they would have to be socialised into seeking protection and have their sexual nature subverted so that women became emotionally attached. Which is why men invest far less emotion.

Sex has a function.....reproduction, the fact we were made to enjoy it is because if we didn't we would have died out thousands of years ago. To put too much emphasis on it as central to our emotional welbeing and confer upon it some special spiritual purpose will always lead to disappointment.

I think the best thing about porn is that it takes the emphasis off this 'emotional connection' stuff, which is not necessary to enjoy sex for a lot of people, and the constant pressure on women to seek the emotional connection is harmful. At its most harmful, it's convincing young and vulnerable women that an abusive man's abuse (in and out of bed) is something they should just accept because he 'loves you'.

Good porn shows people having sex and enjoying it, with no judgement implied. Most mainstream media still shows that women who have lots of sex, without allowing themselves to be owned by a single man, will Come To A Bad End. Or maybe they will Give It All Up For Lurrrve. Especially if they have careers as well.

I could be wrong here but when I read threads like this, on whatever subject, there's always one thing that stands out to me:

The word is getting scarier because we are getting older.

It's not the world that's changing. Or at least, the changes being remarked on are not as fundamental or important as people make out. But the same old world is a lot more frightening when you're 50 and wondering how you're gonna keep body and soul together through a measly retirement, than when you're taut with the muscularity and hormones and confidence of youth.

It's not about emotional sex. It is about desensitisation and about sex education. You may say, and I agree, that sex is not always about an emotional connection (I would say mostly not) but this isn't the same as having no feelings, the feelings are the benefit of sex. Porn makes sexual feelings individual, mainstream porn portrays male orgasm as the goal of sex, it portrays women as the ultimate blow up doll; for the man's pleasure, warm, wet, life-like, undemanding, their function as a conduit for male pleasure. It portrays grossly distorted female bodies as ideal. It at best teaches men to find normal female bodies unattractive and that sex is all about females providing them with orgasms, at worst it creates entitlement. Good sex, with or without an emotional connection involves feelings and sharing and a sexual connection that (mainstream) porn does not portray, much of it is about targets, which is also something men are taught to respond to in other aspects of life; cumming on her face, getting her to take it up the arse, woah she fucked a horse etc those attitudes of getting women to do xyz all come from porn and the desensitising and individualising effect it has.

I don't think you should be anti-emotional about sex to try to prove you are a powerful female or equal any more than I think you should be anti-breastfeeding in order to be equal or strong. I don't think emotional sex or caring for children etc should be seen as female, it harms men just as much to see them as such.

I don't think the guff about women being emotional and men having "needs" to abuse is true and normal people have a combination of emotional and non-emotional sex. It is weird to try and "be like men" and reject that emotion and importantly feeling and sharing are part of sex not targets, especially when that is not how men are but how men and boys are being raised to be and put under pressure to be.

You simply cannot have good sex when you are being treated as a fuck toy by an unresponsive partner who doesn't realise sex is about sharing whether you are male or female.

Offred I don't like visual pornography for all sorts of reasons.
You seem to have a very fixed view of what porn is - there's a very wide variety including men being objectified and abused. [usually unrealistic looking men, too, but that's another point]

Lots of women getting pleasure, too.[but they tend not to be real-looking either]

Thank you, offred.

'Why are women socialised in some way to want "emotional" sex?'

Oh this annoys me. Why not ask why and how men (or anyone) are conditioned to want unemotional objectifying sex? I really don't think this is a men vs women issue - it's about objecting to the fact that contemporary culture is reducing sex to an externalised spectacle of epilated greased up bodies bumping against each other. That is damaging, and sad, and tawdry, and demonstrates a total failure of imagination.

I object extremely to being told that my sadness about the loss to everyone in this situation is because I'm too female, or too old, or too repressed to collude in pretending that this is the way things should be. Bollocks to that.

And don't conflate this with pseudo evolutionary crap about monogamy either - I don't give a damn who or how many people anyone has sex with, but I do care that they can have their own sex, not feel that they have to re-enact some sleazy lowest common denominator middle-management sex script because that's shaped their expectations.

And don't make the mistake of thinking this isn't all equally culturally enshrined - there have been other ways of construing sex, relationships, gender roles. Here's an alternative man's view of sex for you; passionate, emotional, sexy - what's stopping us aiming for that degree of engagement, rather than being pressured to accept that crappy porn culture represents the pinnacle of human sexual development?

I clarified that point earlier on the thread. My view is not fixed nor is it that porn is monolithic. I am talking about mainstream porn.

the Savile thing has brought up a lot of shit for a lot of women who can empathise

Really interesting thread. I think part of the problem is that women's sexuality has been formed and framed by men's view of sex. For example a woman only loses her virginity if a man puts his penis inside her. It seems very strange that a woman's first sexual experience isn't even framed around whether she has an orgasm or not but around what a man does to her.

This has only got worse with the onset of readily available porn. The vast majority of porn is made by men, for men.

I totally agree with SGB about women's sexuality being hijacked by men in terms of not being allowed to express it until recently, being forced into monogamous relationships to control our fertility. Even now there are special words for women who have many partners and they aren't complimentary.

I also worry that to counteract the backlash we are suggesting women and girls should have clearer boundaries. Really it should be boys and men respecting women's boundaries and bodies. That is what we should be teaching our sons. To put the onus on girls and women is still setting women up as the gatekeepers to sex and expecting them to go against sometimes many years of conditioning.

There is an excellent blog post here about consent What's wrong with consent. In fact that whole blog is excellent.

Also if anyone is interested Gail Dines book Pornland is about how porn has hijacked our sexuality.

That blogpost is bollocks consent is not a female issue and it doesn't understand the law. I have to go out but I'll be back later after thinking in more detail.

What a very very excellent thread, so much I agree with and identify with on here.
I could have written the OP and have been thinking along those lines for about ten years, having talked it over with a friend who was pretty gung-ho about a highly pornified sex life and proclaimed this as a victory for womankind. I'm not repressed - I had done at least half of the things she was talking about and the other half I'm just not into - it was the linking of e.g. anal sex to female liberation that I found gullible and disturbing.
For me the defining factor has been age. As someone else said, there is greater fear as you get older, it's a hormonal change and there's probably not a lot we can do about it. There's also been a far far deeper understanding for me of the extent of male abuse of women, whether that's blatant and illegal unfairness in the workplace or out and out physical abuse. The number of men involved is frightening. The acceptance that some women present them with is frightening. The denial from good men is frightening.
I had no idea it was like this, when I was in my twenties. Just not a clue. And now I do and I don't know what to do about it.

HI, will join ISN later

SGB again makes a good point about women feeling the emotional need for attachment even if that attachment is abusive. I think also women tend to trade sex within relationships in search of emotional connection and protection.

However I would disagree that mainstream porn is about two people (or even 30) enjoying sex. I think porn is made by men for men and women are the product. If the women is enjoying it then I would think very likely the male viewer isn't. It is all about objectifying women and commodifying them. These women are not participants, women in porn are just products, what they do isn't currency, because it is about what is being done to them.

In terms of men coming everywhere and anywhere other than where reproductive purposes would dictate is purely about mans hatred and his desire to control reproduction. I read Millet a while back and she examines Mailers writing and in one novel, the male protagonist kills his wife and then has anal sex with his maid. Rojak says he will rape her and deny her female control over reproduction, she is unworthy of his male seed. I think that sums up pretty much why male pornographers have to get the money shot.

Seeking out long term emotional connections and protection, buying into the male entitlement to female as property.The history of marriage where wives were the property of the husband like slaves but only given more respect because they were the legal conduit of his seed, the slave class were the unworthy fuck toys, undeserving with no rights or protection either emotionally or under law, See a parrallel? where some women are wives/mothers and others are economically inferior fucktoys. When professional educated women stop bleating about their husbands porn use and how it makes them feel about themselves and their sex lives, instead stand side by side with the women that are exploited then men will continue to neatly file us, in terms of looks and class, age and disability, worthy or unworthy inferior.

Oh I think the blogger does understand the law, only too well Offred. And it didn't say consent was a female issue. Far from it. It was saying the onus should be on men to prove what steps they took to ensure full and enthusiastic participation in sex (rather than the focus be on whether a woman consented).

"And don't conflate this with pseudo evolutionary crap about monogamy either - I don't give a damn who or how many people anyone has sex with, but I do care that they can have their own sex, not feel that they have to re-enact some sleazy lowest common denominator middle-management sex script because that's shaped their expectations."

Excellent post, OP.

Oh FFS not the John Donne poem! Men who quote that are IME creepy, selfish and manipulative.

Oh and Gail Dines is unreliable and makes up a lot of her statistics. AN awful lot of people in the 'Waaah, porn is ALL AWFUL' camp have seen about two and a half films and insist it's all like that, which is purely and simply wrong.

Oh, and if you are going to quote that stupid jeezus-freak Shelley Lubben next, please don't bother. Another liar with a dodgy agenda.

As to consent, there is a good argument to be made for replacing the idea of 'consent' with the idea of 'enthusiastic participation'.

AbigailAdams
It seems very strange that a woman's first sexual experience isn't even framed around whether she has an orgasm or not but around what a man does to her.

Isn't some of that around sexual shaming; both young women and men are often "taught" to be ashamed of their early orgasms, mostly by masturbation?

This has only got worse with the onset of readily available porn. The vast majority of porn is made by men, for men.

Even now there are special words for women who have many partners and they aren't complimentary.

Complete and ridiculous double standards.

I also worry that to counteract the backlash we are suggesting women and girls should have clearer boundaries. Really it should be boys and men respecting women's boundaries and bodies. That is what we should be teaching our sons.

We should teach our sons - and daughters - to understand their own boundaries, and respect others'. I understand that sometimes girls and young women are pressured into sexual activity by the need for acceptance from their own female peer group. This isn't a gender thing.

I suspect a lot of it is body image, with foolish young people seeking validation of their attractiveness by "proving" they can have sex. I don't blame porn alone for this - I hold the fashion and advertising business at least as culpable, as it's far more prevalent...

solidgoldbrass
As to consent, there is a good argument to be made for replacing the idea of 'consent' with the idea of 'enthusiastic participation'

Which is, of course, not a gendered issue either.

I understand that sometimes girls and young women are pressured into sexual activity by the need for acceptance from their own female peer group. This isn't a gender thing.

Yes, I'm sure this is true for boys too - and there's far less stress placed on the need for boys to understand their own boundaries, and explore their own wants and wishes. There's a nasty combination of on the one hand a peer judgement of success or failure measured against an arbitrary external standard, and on the other a ratehr paranoid fear of what boys' real desires might be like if unleashed.

"And don't conflate this with pseudo evolutionary crap about monogamy either - I don't give a damn who or how many people anyone has sex with, but I do care that they can have their own sex, not feel that they have to re-enact some sleazy lowest common denominator middle-management sex script because that's shaped their expectations" it's like the chicken and the egg, what came first. Sex has been around a lot longer than pornography but

why are women exploited in the making of porn and why is so much of it abusive, well because it has tapped into what lies below the surface within society, the structural social relationships between men and women.

Porn/prostitution is the flip side of the marriage coin. Just as welfare needs are the flip side of greater profits under capitalism, just as God is the opposite of the devil, so Madonna (mother/wife) is the opposite to Whore. As women (wives/middle class women) have made great strides towards equality in work and under the law in terms of property rights so men have sought to counterbalance this with greater subordination of the working class women and subject women to violence and abuse sexually. The role of the media in peddling the idea that women should make themselves not only available to men but to do it on his terms is the backlash. Where worthy women compete with the unworthy for his affection and patronage.

I wouldn't ignore history. If you want an end to female subjugation, a good place to start is ending all form of class inequality not just sex inequality, ensuring ALL women are not only equal to men but between themselves, and an end to marriage and monogamy as being the only socially acceptable goal.

MiniTheMinx
If you want an end to female subjugation, a good place to start is ending all form of class inequality... and an end to marriage and monogamy as being the only socially acceptable goal.

Wow.
Good polemic, but is it your belief that marriage/monogamy is the only socially acceptable goal?

Have a look at the figures and some more ONS stuff

I'd have thought that indicated a societal change?

Indeed, with some 2 million single parent families I wouldn't have thought they were branded socially unacceptable at all?

Yes we are heading in the right direction except for one thing.......take a look at what the Torries are up to! Middle class women are still buying into marriage at the expense of their working class sisters. All this crap about porn shaping their sex lives and the way men view women and what sort of sex they have to have (submit to) is all about the fact that what working class women have had to endure for millenia is now spilling out into their own cozy little world and they don't like it. All this rhetoric about what should we teach our daughters is all very well, what about dealing with the structural class inequalities between women, I mean, how many educated higher earners, married with children, property owning women sell themselves into the sex trade or aspire to make porn.

Until recently liberal feminist have been happy to allow this trade off of lower class women into the sex industry because it actually absolves them of certain functions. Think of all the women in Pankhurt's time, covering their ankles and calling for sufferage for middle class women and sending the working class sisters back to the factories so they could play part time politico at their expense.

Porn/sex trade is the flip side of marriage and many women have been happy with this situation until now but those women powerful enough to make change happen are not the same as those who have been and continue to be exploited. Will anything change just because a few women sounding a little like Mary Woodhouse pop up and tut, I doubt it.