DH hit DD this morning for no reason

[Chainoffools]

I have name changed because I don't want this issue muddied by another issue I've posted in Relationships about recently.

This morning DD aged 4 got up, got herself a book and climbed into bed with us. She kept bumping the corners of the book into us by accident (we were still dozing but it was time to get up really). I got up, went for a shower, and when I came back to the bedroom DH was telling DD off.

And then he smacked her on her back, no warning. Not hard enough to hurt her but hard enough to show he was angry. I don't do smacking btw, although he has done it a couple of times and I've always pulled him up on it.

I sent her off to get dressed and asked him what that was all about. He said "she's getting on my nerves and I'm tired and irritable."

I told him it was completely unacceptable. He disagreed. Then dd was back in the room and all discussion had to stop.

I've brought the subject back up with him tonight after the dc were asleep. These are some of the things he said:

"You're insulting my family ... because that's how I was brought up."

"We'll have to agree to disagree."

"She was being a pest."

"She'd hurt me with the corner of the book."

"It wasn't a hit."

"I hit her harder when I was playing drums on her back tonight."

Him: "Your parents dragged you through nettles!"
Me: "yes and my dad still feels a shit for that."
Him: "You still love him."

Me: "she has rights as a person..."
Him: (incredulously) "she's 4!"
Me: "she's a person! She has the same rights as me!"
Him: "she's a minor! She doesn't have the same rights!"

"I'm sorry, but she (etc etc blah blah)" then later "what's your point? I've already apologised."

"She's hardly going to be traumatised by that is she."

"Duly noted." (final word, look of 'oh I'll go along with it to shut you up')

Am I overeacting to be thinking of taking my dc and leaving him over this?

I can't reply to this. There is nothing to be said.

Why is this still up for discussion, OP?

And what makes you so sure it's nothing to do with the other issue you've posted?

LMFAO izzy well either way i did feel about what i said to DP afterwards i was just coldly angry indeed i didn't realise i could get so cross.

Whats up nutty what other issue

The OP made reference to having changed her name for this post and that she has recently posted, presumably under her usual and more familiar name, on this board in relation to another issue, again presumably, in relation to her marriage, Things.

I take the view that the only justification for violence is self-defence but, that said, if any adult left a mark on a child of mine they could consider themselves exceptionally lucky if I restrained myself sufficiently not to have their eyes out, stuck on cocktail sticks, and placed in a shaken, not stirred, Martini that I'd force them to drink in my cold blood.

Nothing has the ability to enrage me as much as the thought, let alone the act, of violence perpetrated by an adult on a defenceless infant/child.

Imagine how that child must have felt? Being struck for simply cuddling in bed with her book! I have told my husband more than once that I shall always choose my children over any man. I can always get remarried, I can never replace my children.

The reason the DP gave for hitting was "she's getting on my nerves and I'm tired and irritable." The DP hit his own child because he was feeling bad. Not because she was deliberately misbehaving ("being a pest" is just normal kid behaviour in my book) but because he is an arse that would rather hit a small child than deal with his own feelings maturely. Yes children are annoying at times but if everyone hit everyone else when they were "tired and irritable" it'd be a pretty violent world.

FWIW OP if my DH did this it would cause a serious crisis in our marriage. I could never watch my child being hit by anyone, and if that person was hitting just to alleviate their own annoyance I would be so angry I don't know what I would do.

Just to add, I think hitting out once or twice in a child's life out of extreme anger or provocation, while wrong, is understandable to an extent. If a child really pushes your buttons, or puts you in an impossible situation then it's understandable that you might lose your cool and smack. In that situation though I would expect the person who smacked to be very remorseful and to vow never to do it again.

If a person smacks just because they themselves are in a bad mood, then tries to justify it, all that says to me is that the person doesn't feel bad at all about hitting a child and is quite ok with taking their anger/annoyance on a 4 year old. Not an attractive trait.

I think you would be overreacting to leave him over this.

You have only just opened the dialogue. OK, he isn't getting it and clearly he has a lifetime of believing his way is right to overcome, should he choose to.

However, there are ways through this. You're parents, you're in it together. Address it together, possibly find a local parenting course, some relationship counselling etc. I don't think he is going to come round to your way of thinking simply because you want him to, but it is quite possible for him to choose to make change if he is better informed and courses (Dad courses are especially good) and counsellors have nice ways of helping people to "wake up". But shaming him into it isn't likely to work.

All the best, it's tricky but have faith in each other to tackle it.

TTMUH - that was kinda weird you threatening to stab your DH as a means of encouraging him to resist violence. And name-calling the poster who called you on it? Really?

I'm with TTMUH. If someone hit my child they would wish they had never been born!

One of the above posts has just reminded me of something else he said in relation to this:

"it's exactly the same as tapping a dog on the nose when it wees in the house."

So I want to separate. We have no money. Couple of hundred in the bank but bills due to be paid. We only have a joint account. Neither of our families live close by. What do I do? Legal advice? Refuge? Wait it out til I can save a bit of money? I'm clueless.

Sort out a bank account for yourself. Sort out child benefit get it transferred to your name if it isn't already. Child tax credits.

When you say your family isn't close by how far away are they? Is it feasible for a very short time to go and get some space there?

Do you own your house? Get several estate agents for valuations etc.

Am doing school run so can't think of anything else at the moment but will be back later.

Good luck! X

He shouldn't have hit her, of course. But I was more traumatised by my parents separation and divorce than I ever was by the odd smack.
Different if it is a regular occurrence of course.

When my XOH smacked our 2 yr old so hard that he had a hand print on his leg 2 hours later, I went up to him and said "If you EVER do that again I will call the police myself".

My son had grabbed a bag of flour, while his Dad was asleep on the sofa, taken it outside and played with it on the lawn.

This was one of many reasons e became my X, he was also emotionally bullying my other son.

I knew that he would not change the way he dealt with things, he was 50, so I decided for my sanity and the DC's sanity that I would leave him.

It would be a deal breaker for me too.

DH's mum used hitting as a form of discipline for him and his brother, and so that was his main point of reference - he hit DS on the hand once, might have been for throwing and breaking something, but when I explained how strongly I felt about it, he accepted it, apologised to DS and has never done it again. In my opinion that's how it should be - one parent listens to the other and can accept and change.

OP, would he consider moving out, to give you space or whatever, till you get things sorted? How will he take you wanting to seperate?

I dont agree with smacking but observe the rights of parents if they think it is acceptable. Who am I to judge parenting skills? I do think its a massive over-reaction to leave, as the usual brigade want you to ruin your life, your childs and your husbands on a minor matter, its not that serious, esp if the smacking was not acknowledged by the child as you say in your OP.

I think though, the issue is a serious one, and you both need to bang your heads together and sing from the same page with regards to discipline.

Smacking dogs is frowned upon in most dog training circles these days too, so that argument is moot.

Smacking as a punishment is a million times different to smacking someone because you're tired, irritable and they're annoying you. That's something that a child does to their sibling (and would probably be punished for). Not a grown adult doing to a child. When I'm tired and irritable and DS is being annoying I find myself shouting at him, I feel awful about this and try not to because I know it's not fair on him. Everyone does stuff they know isn't 100% right but the difference is whether you try to justify it or recognise it as not best practice and try to find ways of avoiding that situation happening.

Smacking as controlled discipline for actual misbehaviour is justified if both parents are on board and agree with it, I don't like it personally, but that's not the argument here. Although if he wants to argue it as a form of discipline then, again, it's not something that should be done unless both parents agree.

What he's done isn't acceptable and if he thinks it is then I think you DO have a bigger problem.

"Usual brigade want you to ruin your life, your child's and your husband's on a minor matter"

Please. OP has a mind of her own and I'm sure she can cope with people outlining some options on the offchance that she didn't feel justified in making whatever choice. I doubt very much that mumsnetters have ever "bullied" a poster into leaving a perfectly happy relationship.

Also OP you mention another issue - I don't want to pry or guess, and don't answer if you don't want to, but all I will say is that if the other issue is relating to aggression, intimidation or physical violence/bullying towards anyone from your DP then it IS related, even if you'd like to see the two as separate incidents.

And as a separate incident in itself I wouldn't be happy about it either.

"Smacking as a punishment is a million times different to smacking someone because you're tired, irritable and they're annoying you." "Smacking as controlled discipline for actual misbehaviour is justified if both parents are on board and agree with it, I don't like it personally, but that's not the argument here."

exactly what BertieBotts said here - this isn't about wanting to discipline differently, it's about an adult feeling it's acceptable to lash out in a way that doesn't remotely resemble discipline but is about their own irritability right then.

Can you link the other thread, Garlic...if it helps matters of course. It may not in view of OP's decision.

I agree fwiw, that smacking is wrong, but smacking because you, as a supposed adult, are irritable or tired, is beyond the pale. And this comes from someone who visualises smacking my child when she tests me. I have never done it, but sometimes when I am tired and irritable, and she is being a normal toddler, a vision of me smacking her passes through my brain. Even in this vision, smacking never works!!! I think this is my mental counting to ten method.

There is no excuse for actually doing it. All adults can come up with a method to suit them, to let off steam.

Protect a child from mildly being tapped for being annoying in a morning.

Oh please!

OP - are there other things going on that are leading you to the conclusion that you must leave?

There is a huge difference between condoning physical abuse and leaving.

I dont hit my kids and I would not like someone to do so. My mother has smacked them, I dont agree with it and I dont like it, but if she is to be left alone, ever with her grandchildren I accept its a risk.

I think you have discussed this, and hopefully your H will think about it., I would continue the discusssions with him esp that she has rights. I also think its hard to expect kids not to hit one another if adults hit them....

link to my other thread under a different name

To sum up other issues, H is alcohol dependent and more or less unemployed (bits of work here and there, not enough to live on) and doing next to nothing to get work. He has (at my instigation) started to control his drinking in the last 2 weeks. He also has (also with me at the reins) begun promoting himself in the hopes of building up his freelance work.

it is not up to the op to apologise to dd on his behlaf or to say he is sorry - it is up to him to do that (or not) .

title says he had no reason - in his eyes he did - she got on his nerves.to him it was reason enough. so watch out whenever you get on his nerves coz he might slap you... what do you do when he/the dc get on your nerves?

point being - if you dont agree with that rationale for slapping your kids then you have to decide whether you continue or not living with him - bearing in mind all the other issues.

(personally i think a tap when child is in real danger eg about to touch hot oven/road safety is one thing - doing it cos she gets on his nerves is another..)

if right now with stopping drinking or trying to or all the stress or whatever etc etc he is so nervy he cant cope with children being kids then he should leave for a while.

until all is under control.