How do you know for sure that you should leave?

[Apty]

Relationships are full of good and bad. What do you do when you are confused about the balance and how bad it really is?

My instincts tell me to leave sometimes, and then at other times that seems like the worst thing to do.

Do you reach a point when you know?

Thanks Athendof, have,responded.
Tired, that sounds like a horrific situation to be in.
Have the kids ever asked about why you are doing it?
While it would not help in any tangible way, perhaps if you sat down and explained in kid friendly terms the reasons for leaving their father, it could make some difference?
Also your dd is about to hit adolescence, she would likely be bound to find something wrong, regardless of the circumstances. But perhaps she might find talking to a counsellor useful?

Tiredof just wondering if you can give DD a chance to vent, I was brought up in an unhappy home but it wasn't ever talked about so we developed excellent emotion suppressing skills! not good!

frida, strumpet I have tried to talk to dd. She used to be cheery and open but has become more withdrawn and uncommunicative. Irony is, she is now doing what dh has done to me for years, and what, at root, is what killed my marriage - sulking, giving me the bad vibes, but if I ask her what's wrong saying 'nothing'. I get stonewalled.

We went to an event at her new school last night - fresher's fair etc and she went round with dh, talked to dh and sat next to dh the whole time. I was left trailing around with dd2 feeling like a spare part. I don't know what to do, if I try to get her to talk to me she seems irritated. I feel I'm losing her and what's ironic is that one of the reasons I felt we had to separate was that I wanted to reclaim my relationship with my daughters.

I'd been really unhappy for so long and was more and more isolated from the family unit and so often in another world because I was so unhappy.

I've always supported dh as a parent and when they were small and wanted me the whole time I felt bad for him. I always tried to promote his relationship with them.

He's less like this. He's a very jealous person and I feel there is a moral struggle going on for the kids, one which it's hard to win, because I am 'the villain'.

My big fear is that dd1 isn't even going to want to live with me.

And she and I have always had a good relationship, this feels like it's happened almost overnight :(

Tired I was probably like your dd to my mum. Reasons being, it was easier to be on dads side than mums because he'd kick off and could be very nasty and she wouldn't, I felt mum let me down as she wouldn't stick up for me to keep the peace when dad started, when dad chose to be nice he was fun, mum was usually tired and stressed, I'd try to keep dad amused so he wouldn't kick off particularly at events he wasn't personally interested in.

My dh is great but honestly, if I was really unhappy I'd leave. Growing up in a two parent household where one or more parents aren't happy for whatever reasons (whether he other partner or something inside them) isn't all hugs and puppies. My mum was going to leave my dad and she didn't and she ought to have done. I think now shes waiting for one of them to die and it's shit but also she made that choice. I don't thank her for throwing away her happiness and life so I had parents that stayed together and I can't say anyone cares or is impressed she has managed a long unhappy marriage. Marriage might take work but it shouldn't be hard work all the time, life's hard enough as it is! :)

I know a woman who stayed in an unhappy marriage because her children oposed the split. I always thought the children were very unfair to the mum, and also that the mum was a bit stupid for letting her children decide, and all for what?

Her boys are now as abusive to their wives as her husband was towards her. Her daughter is now the perfect abused woman who takes every sort of rubbish from her husband because that is the example she got from her mum. Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind..

At the moment you are doing what your DD wants and she is still being mean and is sulking, if she is going to be like that anyway... What's the point of staying to please her? She won't appreciate it, anyway.

Crab thanks for what you wrote. But I don't think my dh is like your dad. He's actually 'the perfect parent' - he gets to take them for bike rides etc and completely focus on them while I run around cleaning family home for viewings and trying to get new one ready to move into.

Athendof the story you tell is very salutary and quite horrifying.

So much of doing this (separating) is about wanting to be a better parent. I've got the impression from this thread that one of the most agonising things those of us in the awful 'should I stay or should I go?' situation feel is that we aren't doing well as mothers. Either because the dynamic in the family isolates us, or because we isolate ourselves because we are unhappy and preoccupied.

Dh never wants to relinquish time spent with dds. At the weekends if I ever suggested doing something on my own with them he would suggest we all did it. I hated being around him so would let him do things with them on his own to escape him, in doing this cutting myself off from my kids. I am sick of it and it's a big reason why I want to leave.

I want to be the happy, fun person I was before dh wore me down with his negativity, criticism and bad vibes. Everything I do, whether he is around or not, it's as if he is on my shoulder, disapproving. Life is tinged with guilt all over the place because I've been conditioned to feel like this.

Like others on here also, he kind of gave up his outside interests, time with friends, etc years ago so he's always around and I find it really oppressive. It also makes me feel guilty for wanting to have a life outside the home, as if that somehow makes me a bad, selfish person. My world has shrunk and when I'm not at Uni I'm almost a recluse.

I'm fed up with that too.

What worries me is that I was hoping to reclaim my relationship with dd (rebuild?) by getting out and I'm scared it's too late anyway.

*we feel we aren't doing well as mothers

tiredofwaiting I can imagine difficult teenagers 'blaming' mum (the one who took care of you when you were little) when mum decides she needs to change things for her own sake.

If you can afford it I would speak to a child psychologist or counsellor for advice on this as it is tricky to see how to handle it for the best.

Sounds to me as if she knows she is getting at you by being best buddies with DH and using it as a way to get back at you because she doesn't want the upcoming changes. She might be v angry about things and when you ask what's wrong can't say what she really feels, or doesn't know how to say it.

But in the long run the best thing you can be is a happy mum, no bike runs or treats really top that imo, and in the end this is what you will be and she will be happier too.

I think a lot of people dread the splitting up process. And they stay not because they want to but because they can't face the splitting up. If somebody could wave a wand and 'fast forward' you a year into a future in which you have already split up and the worst is behind you, does that sound like a relief?

I left when I had no fear left. I knew that nothing could be worse. People had told me I was brave to leave though. The brave thing to do would have been to have left four years earlier.

Tired of, I can so relate to what you're saying re. letting DH take the kids out on his own because he's insisting on everyone being together. I just don't want to do the happy families thing, because I am not happy. And I take the kids out on my own terms when he's not here so it's not like I'm sacrificing quality time with them.

B1ueberry, this is where I am right now - I don't want to stay, but I am dreading the thought of splitting up. I have a feeling that I've reached the tipping point through, something is going to have to give.

I'm still quite shocked at how many people are going through this at the same time - it's so hard, but it's so helpful to see people sharing their experiences on here. Thank you all.

Tiredof, I'm sure that it's never too late to sort out your relationship with your daughter. She must feel the atmosphere and the unhappiness and she doesn't understand it. I remember being a teenager with parents in a bad marriage and you can't help feeling somehow responsible and weighed down by the misery without understanding why. When you're out and happier and getting yourself back again, you'll spend time with her and talk to her and be able to give her your real focus and attention again in a way that you just can't when you're unhappy and confused.

Thanks people. I feel so much for anyone in this situation because it is so awful and agonising precisely because it is not black and white. The to-ing and fro-ing and oscillating between thinking it's right to stay and feeling like there is no alternative but to go.

B1ueberry I think it is true that it takes courage to leave. One of the reasons it maddens me that there is this Daily Mail view that so many people have that if someone leaves they are frivolously chucking away their marriage out of selfishness. Also there are lots of people who leave for someone else and I think it's because there are so many of us unhappy and if you meet someone else it can seem like being thrown a lifebelt.

There are plenty of times I wished I was leaving for someone else, just to have some support and not feel so isolated. Because I fear being on my own, and because it would give an unequivocal reason why my marriage must end.

But I also know it's cleaner this way, with no-one else involved.

My day improved. I've spent hours decorating, but dds came over to the house. DD1 spent some time reading in her new room, and they both 'helped' me with some decorating. I'm glad because I want them to feel some ownership of their new home. Dd1 got a bit teary at one point and it's clear that she is struggling with things but I think a lot of it is hormones and what she talked about was all to do with her feeling dd2 gets favoured, nothing to do with separating.

We've been giggling about stuff this evening and it's been nice. And I've nearly finished the awful decorating job.

Thanks for your suggestions. If things carry on feeling tricky I think I will look into a psychologist. I want her to have someone to talk to and if it can't be me...

Tired. from where I am standing, it sounds like you are doing a great job!

Thanks frida

They both came over to the house again today. DD1 again went and read in her bedroom. I quite liked knowing she was there, upstairs chilling out in her new space. I am only just getting used to the house myself and it's good that she wants to spend time there. Little one came over later and was really helpful with the decorating which is still nearly finished.

I feel awful for dh though. He's left out and it must feel awful. His future is very uncertain and I wish I could just throw him a lifeline but I know if I do I will resent it, and wish I hadn't.

Sounds like you are making some progress TiredOf, that's wonderful. Another awful weekend grinds to an end here. Dh and I did talk a bit on Saturday but he made it very clear that financially, there's no way we can afford to run 2 households. We were invited out as a couple to a dinner later that evening, and at one stage I looked over at him, and he looked so desperately sad, my heart broke again. We have an 11yo dd who's a daddy's girl and pushes me away & god forgive me sometimes I let her, i just want let them all get on with it. I spend a lot of time in my en suite or alone in my room. Im struggling a bit with alcohol too, and just don't know where I'll get the strength to make a space for myself here. It is a sad consolation to realise I'm not alone if this thread is anything to go by. I'm astounded by how similar our stories are TiredOf, but dh is not a bad man, but very controlling.

Tiredof, so pleased that you've had a good weekend with your girls :). Fab too that they're involved in getting the new house ready, sounds like there's some great bonding going on over that.

I think it's only natural to feel bad for your DH - you're a decent, caring human at the end of the day and you're concerned for the welfare of your DDs' dad. But I think you're also right not to reach out to him, as he could mistake your concern for you wanting to start a reconciliation process.

Hope your week continues to go well :)

Woke up this morning feeling like an utter failure. Ds (4) got up during the night but went to dhs bed. Looks like I'm losing him too.
Just don't think I can do this, my body feels like there's a huge rock in my chest cavity. I can hardly breathe. It's got to be easier to stay, and I feel a nauseous sense of relief at the thought - similar to the feeling of finally hearing some long anticipated bad news.

Stumbled accross this thread late last night.

It really resonates with me. OP and everyone else, I'm sorry this is happening to so many of us.

When it's ok, it's ok. when it's bad it's shit.

I look at dp playing with the dc and the joy it brings to all of them.
I see the way he looks at me and know there is nothing left.

Like so many others I am financially dependent on him. But, even if I wasn't could I ever be brave/selfish enough to destroy a little family.

OP Do you still kiss your DH tenderly? Do you miss him when you're not together?
They are two very searching questions a good friend asked me recently. It was easy, but sad to answer.

Many difficult or abusive men seem, to their wives, to be 'great dads'. It's seen on MN again and again. But a truly good father does not upset, frighten or hurt the mother of his child. He just doesn't.

So while you have a family, and you may be fearful of breaking it up, it isn't a healthy family. The suffering of all will increase over time.

If anyone feels in need of some guidance and a helping hand, please try this thread, and its resources

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1560639-Support-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-11

PP I do miss him when we're not together, but I think I also miss him when we're together - and I realise that maybe it's just the him that he was or who I would like him to be or who i imagine he could be. The reality is very lonely.

It's very sad that the decision to be happier or to be free from a really destructive relationship should feel like selfish decision.

Agree with Ladywordy that it's hard to see how an abusive man is also a good father, but that's because we are disregarding ourselves and trying to see things only through everyone else's eyes, it's a trap that's too easy to fall into.

Apty, You have hit the nail on the head with every line.
I'm sure you're right about the trap, or ingrained ability to see things from other points of view, and completely discard your own view/feelings as, perhaps, irrelevant.

I saw a RL friend go through this, and can remember being baffled that when she'd been abused, she would simply analyse the facts as she saw them... eg her child was happy, loved her dad, and she'd made a commitment so had to put up with everything.....But she seemed to have no idea how she felt, or even that it might matter.

You've given me some insight into why this was.

Over time, her child started to verbally abuse her too, as in her world that seemed acceptable. In addition, the NSDH began to use the child as a means to control and upset my friend further, especially when she was trying to end the relationship. So the true colours of this 'nice dad' became even more apparent.

Hi fellow travellers...

SmallSherry you need to really try to quit the booze. It can't be helping.
I am the last to judge. My drinking was pathological earlier this year and I have a very troublesome relationship with alcohol. I was actually worried I was an alcoholic a couple of months ago. There was a street party in our road for the Jubilee and I let the kids go home to bed and got absolutely smashed, woke up in my clothes. I was solely responsible for dc at the time. Dh was away and I felt really sad going to the party on my own.

I can open a bottle of wine, finish it and open and finish another. I got so I was counting down the minutes until six o clock so I could open a bottle and occasionally drinking during the day (finishing the second bottle I had started the night before). I regularly woke up in my clothes. I've peed myself when drunk.

So I am not being holier than thou. But I stopped eight weeks ago and since then I have had a single drink on half a dozen occasions. I've been drinking Becks Blue (alcohol free). It's been much much easier than I expected and I have felt so much better and more stable. Alcohol dulls the pain, but it creates depression and paranoia and really eats into self esteem.

I'm still having wobbles and have some terrible days. But I honestly think the worst phase is when you can't see the relationship ever being OK and you can't bring yourself to end it either. It feels like there is nothing to look forward to.

Hi all. After a super leaden start to the day I roused myself. Im lucky in that I love my job - but - Oh my Tired. Every one one of your posts has huge resonance for me. My job has a social element and now that I've cut back boozing at home to practically nil as dd was starting to notice what I was packing away - but I've been drinking more & more at work (outside hours, with colleagues, but way way too much. Can't seem to pace myself & have put self in compromising situations which makes me hate myself even more. I hate that I hate Fridays - Monday is my favourite day of the week now. I'm not going to drink this week & hope to not drink on Friday, or to drink like a normal person. Totally agree with sentiment of feeling like all is lost in the marriage but yet theres no hope of anything else. Things have to improve, they have to. Seeing my counsellor tomorrow, hope that helps.

Hi all
I feel it's a bit portentous that I've found this thread tonight, when I'm wondering for the umpteenth time whether to end it with DH.

He's lovely, but I'm just not in love with him any more. It feels odd to type that but it's true. I'm quite sure within my heart that I'd rather be single (long-term, I just don't think I'm cut out to be in a couple).

Like all couples, we have our similarities and our differences, but the differences that didn't seem so important when we got together are suddenly looming huge, while the similarities are fading away. We've both changed, and not in a way that's compatible.

He would be devastated if we split - he moved from his home country and all his family for me. If we split, would he go home or stay here for the DDs? I would feel awful inflicting that decision on him. I know he still loves me very much so it seems so cruel to chuck him out when he hasn't really done anything wrong.

But on the other hand, it seems cruel to stay together, when I have to admit the most obvious reason I have for keeping him is so he can look after the DDs while I pursue my own interests in the evenings/weekends. I'd have to give up my hobbies if we split.

Tonight he said something about us moving back to his country and my heart leapt, thinking that if he really wants to go home that would be the solution to my problems.

It's not good, is it?