Question to children of 'Narcissists'..?

[WorldOfMeh]

Hello... :)

I have noticed a lot of people mentioning Narcissism on this forum, and hadn't thought much about it until I happened to randomly click onto a link out of curiosity, which led me to a site aimed at daughter of narcissist mothers.

A lot of traits seemed to chime with a lot of what I remember of my mother, growing up. My father, according to the blurb, fitted into the 'Enabling Father' profile.

The thing is, although I am interested in researching this further in order to try to understand my own 'fuck-upednesses' and those within my family, I am finding myself wondering whether this is a type that comes in half-measures- or if people can change? (Even at her worst, I can't say that my mum exhibited all of the characteristics- although there were a few..!)

I get on very well with my mum now, but I feel she's quite a different person to the mother I grew up with- and aside from that, I know and understand that I can't expect her to be particularly engaged in anyone else, emotionally. She has her limitations, as we all do, but I also believe that she has tried to work on some of these things (without having discussed it directly) - so I am not comfortable with the more extreme 'cut them out' stuff I've come across online.

So... I guess I am also wondering if it's possible, supposing there are 'grades' of the type and dynamic, to use coping strategies in order to benefit all involved without demonising or antagonising anyone concerned? Or is it all just more labelling, basically re-stating the obvious?

Hope this makes some sort of sense- the wine fairies saw fit to visit me this evening, and I have been trying not to ramble too much!

Firstly I am sorry I am so tired so can't respond fully as on way to bed but didn't want to read and run. My mother is a narcissist and is truly awful at times but I don't believe she is all bad and is trying harder as she gets older, I have two choices, cut her out or try to accept her for what she is and work with it, I choose the latter so yes I think there are strategies but don't be too hopeful of changing someone or you will just be disappointed it is more about being realistic in your own expectations.

Firstly I am sorry I am so tired so can't respond fully as on way to bed but didn't want to read and run. My mother is a narcissist and is truly awful at times but I don't believe she is all bad and is trying harder as she gets older, I have two choices, cut her out or try to accept her for what she is and work with it, I choose the latter so yes I think there are strategies but don't be too hopeful of changing someone or you will just be disappointed it is more about being realistic in your own expectations.

Thanks, greeneyed- really appreciate your response, especially as you're feeling tired. I don't imagine I could change her, no. It's definitely more about understanding what applies to her, then our relationship, and also what effect it has had on me and my sister- we both have some MH issues. Glad to hear from someone else in a similar position. :)

As all things, it goes on a spectrum. Sort of 1 - 10.

As a daughter of a narcissist who herself was a daught do a narcissist father my brothers and I have a theory that, while you may not be a narcissist, your behaviour can certainly be narcissistic.

What I mean by that is. As we grow up, our world view is shaped by our parents. Our mother certainly had her opinions and demonstrated to us a way of behaving. Which, as children do, we copy.

So when a situation arrives we react like we have been taught. This has caused some real issues for one of my brothers, which looking back he can now understand why he didnt get this job or that contract renewed.

My uncle, certainly behaves like a narcissist, but was willing to change some of his behaviour towards his daughter when she had enough and confronted him. Not all, especially towards my aunt. But there was some change. My mother on the other hand is a true, unbending one.

So maybe, if our theory is correct, your mother is capable of self reflection and change. But don't hold your breath in the hope there will be a full on change. 50, 60 years of a type of behaviour is a hard habbit to break.

My mother has some truely narcisstic traits but on the other hand she has stuck up for me on occasion too.
It's very black and white for her, if we are in conflict then it is never her fault but if I am in conflict with another then it does not matter whose fault it is, she will take my side.
So I have had to come to terms with who she is and that from her side, our relationship will never be capable of change.
But I have managed to change how I act and feel.towards her and placing strong boundaries between us. So it is possible to remain in touch with a narcissist and have an ok relationship.
The three thousand miles we have between us helps too.

Thank you for your stories, they help a lot. I guess it's still all a bit muddled in my mind, really: until coming across that website, I just thought that traumatic events had caused my mum to be emotionally disconnected. Perhaps they didn't help, but reading up on it I can see that there are shades of this type in her, too. My father's mother was, I think, a classic narcissist: I suspect that he may have related to my mother in such a way as to emphasize some of it, especially when we were kids.

She lost twins in a late miscarriage: she nearly died, and Dad then had a nervous breakdown (which heralded the onset of Bipolar illness). I think it made him even more protective of her. I then assumed that she didn't bond with us because of fear of being hurt again (she said to my sister she thought we looked at her like we hated her when we were newborn!), but then I would have thought that to many mothers, subsequent children would be all the more precious, wouldn't they? She ignored us as much as possible, and seemed to resent us. Dad always defended her against us. We kind of felt unwelcome in the home and I equated being obviously loved/hugged etc with being 'spoiled' when I saw it in other families.

Certainly I can remember a lot of (in retrospect) odd things going on that were clearly neglectful or abusive, but even now, though we have a good relationship, I have to accept that she won't remember them, and that her memory continues to re-write itself even now. (For example, I was somewhat surprised to be told that she had apparently told me that I shouldn't go back overseas with a violent, drug dealing abusive ex when I was 16 - I left home at 15, btw- but I could stay with them and go back to school if I wanted. I think she believes she said it, and I wish she had- but I know I can't contradict her. I just have to smile and nod.)

So... it isn't so much that I want to rehash the past and have a pity party for myself, it's more that I need to understand her present limitations, and to understand as fully as I can the impact that our childhood has on me and my sister, especially as we are both parents now. We both, aside from suffering from depression in varying ways, have very low self esteem and some trouble relating to 'normal' people. I experience some emotional 'disconnect', too, though it comes and goes, as if a wire isn't quite connected properly somewhere. I couldn't actually easily say the word 'love' until I was nearly 30!

Are any of you able to tell me how you feel your background has affected you emotionally and in terms of your personality, and in how you relate to other people?

(Sorry for the ramble...)

"Dad always defended her against us. We kind of felt unwelcome in the home and I equated being obviously loved/hugged etc with being 'spoiled' when I saw it in other families." - Me too! Or I would look enviously at them and wish I was in that family.

Trusting that people like me for who I really am is very hard for me, and has completely collapsed since being cheated on. I will either become fullsome or protect myself grandiosely (thoughts) or be too nice.

I was trained to care about other people more than myself, and it has set me up to be a magnet to narcissists. So co-dependence is the flip side of narcissism.

You are not born narcissistic. It is an environmental/parenting thing.

Making excuses for your children's mistake (ie siding with them against teacher, refusing to believe they have the capacity to lie/bully/etc) is the WORST mistake a parent can make.

It is in fact a deeply unloving, untruthful and self-absorbed thing to do.

Abitwobblynow,can I ask,are you sure you that people are not born narcissist.Im only asking,because I was on a thread with another poster,who was concerned about passing on possible genes of narcissism.

My mother isn't the only reason for this , I had plenty of other fucked up situations and people in my life but basically I have suffered from depression since I was an adolescent , I have serious trust issues and I view the world very differently, I'm some ways it's like being autistic , just unable to see how or why people react to things in the way they do. I do try and understand though and I know just because my perception is different, does not make me right.
Abitwobbly- I have to disagree that the worst thing a parent can do is defend their child regardless, it's not great, I agree but it in no-way compares to bullying and hounding your child because you have got home after a bad day. Or refusing to comfort your child because they 'are making a fuss about being nervous before an exam'. And oh-so many other examples of horrific parenting...

I think there cd be a genetic propensity towards Narcissistic Personality Disorder or it could be just that it's modeled to us by our parents, leaving the wound which we in turn may pass on..

However, from what I've read, we are born narcissists; this is healthy -children need that self-absorption for their survival-cries of hungry baby for milk etc. Ideally we grow out of this by adulthood but retain a degree of "healthy" narcissism - to drive ambition and have a sense of self worth, for example. I believe it's thought that adults with NPD may be "stuck"
in someway at a stage in childhood, hence the narcissism.

Abitwobbly- completely relate to feeling of Wagner, huggy families in which in my Dms view, the dc were "spoilt" ditto my df justifying it all, sadly I now realize he's a weak and feeble man, a complete codependent who enabled my dm and did precious little to protect me

This understanding is starting to help me, though still doubt/question/fight myself over the magnitude of what I'm daring to say saying. And for now finally -in my 40s-- standing up to dm calmly and resolutely to establish my boundaries. Without this there is no peace for me and no contact with her.

Wagner?! autocorrect crazy sometimes!
Meant "huggy" families

Frida- like you it was my adolescence which was the tricky (abusive?) time. Dm used to come home from work incandescent w rage sometimes and take it out on me. Df at work, Dsis left home so just us for hours and hours each day.
She used to thunder around the house, scaring me witless, at times hitting me, shaking me, breaking my things, telling me off constantly inc for things I never did, making comments about my appearance and how I shouldn't wear a shirt skirt around dad (wtf?)

By the time df got home 3 hours later she wd have calmed down, offer him a cup of tea and a kiss and gave whispered conversations about how difficult id been again

It's quite a minefield working out what you or a parent might be/have - the problem when behaviours cross-over or display themselves very similarly to a label or two.

I am researching and reading lots (my son's father is definitely an extreme narcissist and sociopath - though abduction and throwing a knife might put him slightly into psychopath), but did you know many Asperger behaviours are in line with narcissist ones, but are caused by different things? Asperger being the brain, narcissist is environment/upbringing/ (not genetic) and the child creates a 'front' away from the shame/pain/fear of the real self due to the poor/abusive parenting. With Asperger, the development just doesn't happen. But it can look the same from another's viewpoint. Aside from that, a little bit of narcissism is healthy and I think it's 5 out of 10 traits puts someone in the 'unhealthy' category, going up to 8+ for extreme.

Aspergers is also a spin-off of sociopathy apparently, which is genetic.

Ahh, I'm probably not helping much! The most helpful I can be is to recommend some of the great books/web pages out there by psychotherapists and so on who have studied this indepth and can list, differentiate and help to work out what someone is. The most common professional advice is to drop contact with an extreme narcissist - doesn't really help though when it's your parent. So yes, protective strategies are the way to go.

I'm at a stage where I want to get some counselling for me - I am more on the co-dependent side (I think) which is why (I assume) I was attracted to a narcissist! But I can't work out if I'm the daughter of a narc or not, because I'm convinced she is as much co-dependent as narc and I don't know if that's possible! I have to work through it all with someone that can pull bits out and get me to see it clearly!

Salbertina said it all much better!

Bluepenny, how is she both, can you think of examples?? I think I know what you mean- my df has either some unhealthy narcissistic traits, or, more likely is autistic. He mainly exhibits codependent behaviour with dm tho as she's so extreme

I'm also in therapy for this (see post below) to try and process. Understanding why really helps, if I can get there. Hope if helps you too.

Million, good question. And, funnily enough the answer lies in the biblical concept of original sin. [Remember: a parable/fairytale is a way of explaining human truth before the non-religious get excited]

All people are born and are inherently selfish. If you look at a toddler, the 'terrible twos' is the start of the assertion of ego, and the clash as parents start saying 'NO' to a child.
So this is the start of teaching children (ie, 'share' to use a simple example, or 'biting is wrong!') that other people's needs exist too and they need to start thinking about them.

All of us have narcissistic (selfish traits). But real narcissism comes out of two environmental factors: trauma and abandonment where the child is not truly loved for who they are, and shuts down and decides they don't care about anyone else, that whole 'island' thing, and/or parents being too doting and indulging and not putting limits on their children (requiring them to control themselves/think of others/ think they can do whatever they like).

I personally think it is a mix of the two. If you look at LouP's threads on Mr Chutney, she gives the clues all the time. Chunt was 'golden boy' who was ALSO not given much love and doesn't have a good r with his parents. Who have reacted to the whole mess by NOT expressing horror at their son's behaviour but making excuses for him / saying oh well goodbye Lou.

Narc narc narc narc cement mixer deluxe.

Likewise my own H has a very wierd mother who would not give her children much love, but ALSO no guidance either. She would either ignore them or burst into tears and not speak to them for a week and they had to work out what they had done wrong.
When H cheated she said to him 'oh it wasn't your fault, you were .... [excuse]'

narc narc narc narc cement mixer deluxe.

Bluepenny how old is your DS and does he have much/any contact with his dad? If so how do you damage limit.. sorry don't mean to highjack

Think I see what you're getting at.. But hungover complicated stuff

My Dh had an online thing which rather devastated me and shook things up to the point of separation. I stupidly confided in v brief terms to my parents that he had been "inappropriate". Assuming that they might actually be on my side, if anyone's, I was devastated when at our 1st meeting in a year, df asked my dh in my absence whether medication was involved?!

I am still so outraged at their casual hugely inaccurate presumption that our split was all MY fault and that I needed medicating! It's such an astounding show of their lack of belief in, loyalty and love for me, such a betrayal plus on front of my dc!
I've taken ads once for PnD, I've worked in professional roles all my life, have recently passed my masters, have friends, MIL and yes, dh, who esteem me yet in my parents' eyes I am clearly SO damaged, responsible for all the rubbish in our family and not strong enough to be communicated with directly. Sorry, am FUMING all over again!

Worldofmeh- sorry for hijack
But hope I've provoked a little discussion anyway. Maybe I should start my own thread

My mum is most definitely a narcissicist but she knows how to 'look normal' when she needs to. As a result only her immediate family have seen her true side. She was abused a lot as a child and I think people have allowed that to excuse a lot of her inappropriate behaviour. She also refuses to believe that 'mental illness' exists, in the same way that she refuses that she is wrong about anything regardless of how trivial it is.

She was only violent when I was very young and when I was a moody teenager- In between that it was emotional abuse on a horrible scale. My dad worked away for two weeks and came home for two weeks. She would be evil when he was away and as sweet as you like when he was home. She would flat out deny any abusive incidents even when it was just me and her speaking. She would express 'concern' about my mental state if I mentioned things that she pretended never happened. My dad had absolutely no idea about her lies and abuse until she divorced him accusing him (falsely) of violence and financially crippling him.

I don't know about a 'scale' of narcissicism- I'm sure my mum is no where near as bad as some people, but that was mainly because she was so obsessed with 'appearing' to be a good mum then she was a being a good mum- if she was left to her own devices I'm sure she would have been much worse. Essentially, the more 'observed' she felt, the more she kept herself in check. She knew the difference between right and wrong but believed that she could bypass it easily if no one was 'watching'- scarily enough she's become a magistrate!

Luckily she doesn't speak to me any more because I practice tough love and I don't take any of her crap. I'm sure I look mental sometimes, but (in the last few moments that I did speak to her) I would only speak to her with other people present and I would not take any crap at all. If she acted out of character I pointed it out, if she lied or was utterly immoral I would point it out, I would point out her obsession with money and 'obtaining' other people possessions (such as my dads and my sisters) without any need for having them and I would point out her utter lack of empathy for anyone other then herself

Sorry for how long this is but essentially I think that my mum is a damaged human being who will never acknowledge that she has a problem. I just hope that my other sisters will see it without being as hurt as myself and my other sister who no longer has any contact.

I am 52. I have never heard of this before. I have always known I was a problem for my mother and that she had "issues". I have tried to please her all my life and never have. I have just googled a few things and found this. This is the problem. This is why I have always felt inadequate in her eyes. I don't think she is at the worst end in terms of viciousness but I am very resolute and may not have been as badly affected as I might have been.

www.willieverbegoodenough.com/is-this-your-mom/

I suddenly feel absolved of a great deal of responsibility for a poor relationship which I have always been blamed for by her.

Salbertina - it's complicated with my mum, as you can probably imagine! The narc side - never good enough as a child or adult, continuous put downs publicly and privately, all me and siblings fault for her health, took XHs side when marriage broke up, etc. The co-dependent side - she is the carer/fixer of everyone else except sibling and I! I know her childhood and it's clear it stems from that (which wasn't her fault), but I need to work through it with a counsellor I think.

Babyhammock - my DS will be 12 next month. From birth to last May, he saw DF unfalteringly on alternate weekends, however a few months ago, something happened which was a catalyst for DS to say some stuff which worried me. It was only then that DFs actions during our relationship and after we split (when I found out I was expecting) led me to realise he was an extreme narcissist. Long story short - DS was an object of attention as a baby, neglected physically at times, emotionally abused as he got older. DS has been having counselling and decided due to the event that he no longer wanted to have any contact with DF - he doesn't reply to his emails for example, doesn't want to see him and won't skype with him. DF has basically abandoned him by going to live abroad - but from the narc perspective, DS was at an age when the narc feels threatened and is therefore no longer useful to him. DF has even sent photographs of DS back with all the stuff from his house!!

Garlicnuts posted a link on LouP's Chutney thread about parenting by narcissists and I could have written that myself.

Honestly, if I'd have known DF was an extreme narc at the outset, then I would never have allowed contact and a couple of things that happened within a week of DS's birth meant I could have stopped it via the law, but I didn't. I thought it was DF being depressed and excused it. I can't tell you how much I wish I could warn other people about extreme narcissists and what they are capable of, but unless you've been through it, no-one believes you, because narcs are so damn good at turning it all round. XP even wrote to my parents to tell them that I was mentally unstable and not fit to parent DS! Yet it was XP who'd disappeared with DS at 6 days old, it was XP who had shouted at DS at 3 days old because he was crying for milk! Thankfully I had a fantastic HV who got me through.

Hello again- and thank you to everyone who has contributed so far. Please don't worry about 'derails' or anything, I'm finding your experiences with this immensely helpful. I am also pleased that it has been helpful to you, too, marriedinwhite.

amybelle, a lot of what you describe with your mum chimes with my experiences, too. Certainly, when I started 'going off the rails' when I hit puberty (I think it was the first manifestation of my depression, really), it wasn't until the school became involved that either her or my father suddenly became the picture of parental concern- bearing in mind they wouldn't see me for days at a time (or know where I was), as I was staying off school and hiding at the houses of older friends etc. To be fair to my father, he hadn't been very well at the time, but I don't honestly think he would have done much different had he not been.

Hey, ho. I probably over-think stuff- in fact, I know I do- but I have even done a certain amount of family tree research and (I know this is sort of daft) have uncovered some family secrets and possible historical dynamics that may have led to a lot of this stuff. I am serious about wanting to break the chain, though obviously I don't want to disappear up my own arse too much. Looking at some of the stuff I have found online, I think my approach differs in this respect- i.e., many folk seem to want to do a lot of blaming. Don't get me wrong, getting angry can be an important part of realisation, but after that, what do you do?

Right, got to go- OH back from walking the dog. Sorry to ramble n' run..!