Question to children of 'Narcissists'..?

[WorldOfMeh]

Hello... :)

I have noticed a lot of people mentioning Narcissism on this forum, and hadn't thought much about it until I happened to randomly click onto a link out of curiosity, which led me to a site aimed at daughter of narcissist mothers.

A lot of traits seemed to chime with a lot of what I remember of my mother, growing up. My father, according to the blurb, fitted into the 'Enabling Father' profile.

The thing is, although I am interested in researching this further in order to try to understand my own 'fuck-upednesses' and those within my family, I am finding myself wondering whether this is a type that comes in half-measures- or if people can change? (Even at her worst, I can't say that my mum exhibited all of the characteristics- although there were a few..!)

I get on very well with my mum now, but I feel she's quite a different person to the mother I grew up with- and aside from that, I know and understand that I can't expect her to be particularly engaged in anyone else, emotionally. She has her limitations, as we all do, but I also believe that she has tried to work on some of these things (without having discussed it directly) - so I am not comfortable with the more extreme 'cut them out' stuff I've come across online.

So... I guess I am also wondering if it's possible, supposing there are 'grades' of the type and dynamic, to use coping strategies in order to benefit all involved without demonising or antagonising anyone concerned? Or is it all just more labelling, basically re-stating the obvious?

Hope this makes some sort of sense- the wine fairies saw fit to visit me this evening, and I have been trying not to ramble too much!

Oh, and I was also curious (if anyone is still reading!) about whether self-sabotaging was something any of you suffered from?

Off to bed now, but hopefully will get a minute tomorrow to check back in. Thanks again to you all. :)

My mum is a narcissist and dad an enabler so you have my sympathy. It's great you are trying to find out as much as possible about it all as it will make sense of so much of your upbringing and the way you are now.

I found cognitive behavioural therapy very useful in breaking some of my negative patterns and it helped my self esteem too. (I had MH issues too, as a result of upbringing). Also I read as much as possible, Children of the Self Absorbed by Nina Brown and The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller were useful.

It sounds like you have a good relationship with your M because you accept the way she is and are not hoping for an apology or even an acknowledgement from her about her past behaviour. This is sensible as you will never get one.

You have to decide if the way she behaves now (and to your DCs too) is acceptable and if not, how much contact you have.

Thankfully it is not an inherited trait, rather a result of upbringing, so it is possible to break the chain. That has certainly been my motivation with my DCs. Wishing you all the very very best.

I used to self-sabotage when I was a teenager- being unkempt and overeating but then again I can't help but feel like that was also normal teenage behaviour!!! I don't know whether anxiety can be considered to be self-sabotage, but it took a few years for me to control panic attacks and irrational thoughts

I know a lot of people mock it but I found CBT invaluable for helping me to rationalise that my mum was just mentally ill and that it wasn't my fault which- from listening to others experiences- is one of the hardest things to get over. Luckily my mum also managed to 'show her true colours' to the entire family during her divorce from my dad, so I had an overwhelming amount of support from the rest of my family who acknowledged what I had gone through and apologised for not seeing it. It made the 'recovery period' a lot easier.

Breaking the chain is a huge concern of mine because I'm currently expecting my first DC and I don't want to make my mums mistakes. I know I won't because I have empathy and I have studied hard to develop myself and reflect upon my actions to ensure that I behaving rationally., but the fear is always there that I'll just turn into her. I think it's because she never acknowledges that she is 'wrong' and lies so convincingly- I've always wondered whether she actually believes what she says or whether she knows she's malicious. Without being in her head, it's difficult to know what motivates her to act so appallingly.

How did your mum change? I can't imagine my mum ever changing how she is because of how stubborn she is and how amazing she seems to think she is. Did she have some sort of revelation or did she get professional help? (if that's not too personal to ask)

Amybelle** when ds1 was put in my arms nearly 18 years ago I understood for the first time what unconditional love was and cried on and off for six weeks because I knew I realised I had never had it. It will be fine and it will come in a natural way but do be aware that you might be upset at the extent of the realisation of what you didn't have.

One of my most triumphant moments (and it's a horrid thing to say) was when dd, at about the age of 12, said after visiting my mother "how did you put up with her - she's so difficult".

My mother was never extreme, just very spoilt and manipulative and really rather false (her relationships are superficial and designed for people to think she is wonderful - but the friendships are intense and never last but so often I have been told what a marvellous person she is). DD did used to spend time with her when she was smaller but has refused to go alone from the age of 12. DD is more sensitive and more perceptive than me and had she been the daughter and me the grandaughter I think more damage would have been wrought.

Thanks for the namecheck, Bluepenny - here's that link again: Narcissistic parents.

Aussiebean, those learned narc-like behaviours are sometimes called Fleas.

I'm self-sabotaging too. I understand it's the result of childhood programming, though can't say I'm doing the best possible job of re-programming myself atm

Not posting any links for this, as it always starts a row on here, but I'm unconvinced that autism-spectrum disorders and sociopathic disorders won't turn out to be of similar origin. There are plenty of reasons to think they might be - possibly influenced by genetics and hormonal influence in utero, followed by family environment - although this area is both difficult to research and unpopular, so I doubt we'll be seeing announcements any time soon. For us, it doesn't matter that much anyway. What's done is done, and we know what children need from us (that we didn't get).

OP, I 'trained' my mother to respect basic boundaries, with help from the Stately Homes threads on here. We've also had several heart-to-hearts, which I found painful and illuminating. She won't change. I just relate to the public version. Sometimes - at my advanced age! - I want my Mummy, but the one I've got isn't capable of being properly supportive; never was :(
Note to self: support self instead of proving self worthless

yes I self sabotage - mess up important interviews, fail myself etc.

her relationships are superficial and designed for people to think she is wonderful - but the friendships are intense and never last but so often I have been told what a marvellous person she is

MarriedinWhite what a fantastic summary.

Hello again- been thinking a lot about this today- meant to come on and write a longish post, but am exhausted. One of those very hectic demanding days that leaves you cross eyed. Rain check til tomorrow, when brain function returns. Sort of.

Thank you all so much, though, a lot of useful stuff to think over.

So, back in the room- sorry it's kind of late. Have had a nasty bug/food poisoning- actually collapsed this morning! Feeling a lot better, but not all that sharp... but I wanted to check in, especially after reading some things in your posts above that I could really relate to.

amybelle; I have been trying to think about how my mother has changed, and it's complicated- as much as anything, I think that perhaps one of the keys to it was that a bit of physical distance made all the difference. I ran away, and at the time she was working for a counselling charity. They offered her some counselling at that time, and I think that might have made a bit of a difference. Also, for several years we didn't tend to spend much time in one another's company- it didn't tend to go too well if we did.

During that time, she and my dad moved to a village where they got to know a lot of other retired couples with children, and actually I think that they may have come to realise that other people were more involved with their kids. So both of them suddenly started giving us awkward hugs and things like that.

The other thing that happened, since then, was that my dad became terminally ill, and had a breakdown. Long story, but he tried to kill himself and my mother. Although she realised it was not something he would have done when sane, it shook her (understandably!). I moved a few hundred miles to be nearer them so that I could come at weekends to offer support. She's never really had close, close friends, so I don't think she felt she could talk about some things with people she knew. That she could with me made quite a big difference.

I think that part of it is that I have learned to like quite a few things about my Mum- she's funny, irreverent and very sharp. I have come to accept there are some things she doesn't 'do', and that wishing it had been otherwise won't change anything. She didn't choose to be the way she is, and the key thing is that I think she genuinely tries these days (hence my thinking she is not an extreme case, probably). I still bounce up against barriers though- she is terrified of being asked to look after my baby daughter, and got it into her head that she didn't like her for some reason- so I have to be a bit sensitive to her moods. Her other grandchildren have never seen much of her growing up, and they haven't much interest in her. I think she really wants to do better this time.

I can't talk to her directly about the past. She wouldn't remember anything, or would say that she couldn't. Even seemingly trivial stuff: and several stories have changed a lot over the years. Perhaps her memory really is a bit duff? Anyway, I see no point in ruffling her feathers or hurting her, especially as she can't change the past now.

So, apologies for rambling, here- but it has been interesting to come across this information and read about your experiences, as I had struggled to make sense of my Mum's behaviour before. I had though she was simply unmaternal, angry about being prevented from furthering her education and having a career, and that some of the competitiveness with me and my sister was because her father had died when she was small, and so she wanted all my Dad's attention. But it's complicated, as those things could also factor in, I suppose...

Self sabotage. Ha. Well, that's a big problem for me, and something I am having trouble with now, in that I am very angry with myself for choices I have made in life. I've had a ridiculous number of ill-judged relationships with addicts, alcoholics, cheats etc... messed up a degree I had been doing very well in, messed up amazing opportunities in various creative ways... and now feel like all the bridges have been burned. And am not sure I can change the way I relate to some people (i.e. in work situations). I'd even wondered if I was a narc too, but the link about FLEAS was really useful.

However, I am very lucky to have a wonderful, empathic and supportive partner. My sister does too, now- although I worry about her (but that's a whole 'nother thread!). My daughter seems cheerful and bouncy and healthy, thank God. I was terrified that the PND I had would have a terrible effect on her, but everyone comments on what a happy soul she is. marriedinwhite, I desperately hoped for that 'rush of love' thing, but it didn't come. I think we have bonded, and I am sure I love her, but it has taken time, and I still worry about it, to be truthful. However, I have discovered that that happens to even 'normal' people, so I try not to overthink it and just to keep doing the right things for her.

The rush of love might still come. I had it with DS but not with DD but I didn't have pnd with dd either. The love for dd just grew and grew and I promise you our relationship couldn't be more different than the relationship I had with my mother.

I didn't self sabotage but I did live on the edge of an eating disorder in my 20s (although I didn't let myself get close to a man before I met DH at 30ish and I did break off a couple of relationships at about 2 years for the sake of it/commitment problems - but I might just not have loved them enough). However, even my mother has said she's surprised I didn't go off the rails as a teenager but she links that more with her two divorces when I was a teenager rather than any acknowledgement that she was the one with the problem.

As I said, I am pretty tough but I would fear for dd if our positions were reversed but then again may be she is softer and more sensitive because she can be. Who knows.

I hope the future works out well for you. I am reading a book at the moment that says we can't change the past but we can accept the present and build a happy future from it. Trashy book but I think that bit's right.

amybelle your mother sounds like a sociopath. Sorry. Sociopaths are good at covering their tracks and hiding who they are. Sociopaths are also narcissistic. But not all narcissists are sociopaths. My mother is narcissistic and I only realised it/made sense of her behaviour recently and now having psychotherapy for its effect on me.

Hi, soontobe. Would the following paragraph not apply to the situation amybelle describes?

"Narcissists have two faces - the one they wear in public, and the one they wear at home. Only those close to the narcissist have any idea there is more than one face. And the narcissist's children know best of all, because children - those who have the least power - are the ones the narcissist allows him or herself to be the least guarded around. A frequent frustration of children of narcissists is that everyone else thinks their mother or father is the most wonderful person ever, while at home their children suffer in silence with their parent's tantrums, disinterest and put-downs - this is clearly NOT the most wonderful person if you truly know them - not even close."

(From one of garlicnut's useful linkies--> here)

Hi world. Having done extensive reading on both sociopaths and narcissists, from those who are these and those who have written about them, and having dated a sociopath/borderline personality disorder (or maybe he was both, they are every similar) and having a mother with many narcissistic traits, this reads more like a description of a sociopath. Although as I said sociopaths are narcissistic by nature also. But my mother for example doesn't wear two faces, she seems oblivious of the harm she has caused me and my brothers and my dad, she means well and thinks she loves us in her own way, she isn't trying to hide her true nature, whereas sociopaths do, and they are very good at it, and feel very clever about themselves because they have tricked everyone, sometimes even their "nearest and dearest". This is what led me to conclude that the guy I dated was borderline personality disorder and not a sociopath as he made little attempt to hide what he was and was so attention-seeking with it I actually thought it was his sense of humour as I couldn't believe anyone could be so blatant.

My mother on the other hand I would say is narcissistic (and my psychotherapist agrees) because amongst other things she is self-absorbed, everything is about her, she doesn't (can't?) empathise, does not notice the needs of me or my brothers, and things we just exist to serve her. But she does not realise there is anything wrong in this and in the past if I have tried to be honest with her she has over-reacted, taken it all very badly and stopped speaking with me. Eg when I had just split with my husband and was in deep distress her reaction instead of sympathy was "why didn't you tell me earlier, I've been worrying that it was something I did wrong, you let me suffer all this time".

Oh yes - when our ds2 was born and died at 27 weeks - my mother's response was, "you have to deal with it, because I won't know what to say to people in the village if you can't". And "you need to pull yourself together, you didn't have him for years like women who have lost children". It's unspeakable!

thats awful married, I'm so sorry

I lost a baby also, died at 9 days very unexpectedly. Mine didn't say anything mean but she didn;t know what to do either. Remember her coming to the hospital and she sat there on the couch in my maternity room with my two brothers and they just sat and stared at me sitting on the bed crying with breastmilk running down my top. It was like they were expecting me to entertain them and I just didn't have the energy. I just wanted them all to leave so I could get back to my daughter who was dying in the special care unit :(

Growing up my siblings and I all found my mother very mean, quite cruel really, she would say unkind things and study our faces for the hurt reaction, then laugh to herself. Everything was about her and our role was to keep her propped up.

Looking at it now I would describe her as extremely narcissistic but that now she is old she has spells of being almost socially acceptable. Unsure why. Possibly she has worked out that driving people away can leave you lonely?

To be honest I think I was quite narcissistic too. I could not empathise with others or even connect with my own feelings, presumably because of the way I was brought up.

But through therapy, quite a lot of it actually, I learnt to identify my feelings and also to empathise with others.

So to answer your question OP I would say that yes a person can move up and down the narcissistic spectrum (v confusing to experience) and that they can soften/improve/change with time and effort. But I think it helps to accept how they are rather than to hope they will change because mostly they just don't get it.

Bluepenny, can I ask about the counselling for your DS please? How did you access it? Are they a dedicated childrens counseller?

I believe my exP is a narcissist. He ticks pretty much every box on every checklist. Our daughter (now 8) has been picked up and played with on an irregular basis throughout her life- he will go through periods of wanting to impress other people (i.e. new girlfriends, or male friends who see their children) so will see her on a semi regular basis for a couple of months, to not seeing her. As a result of this, her self esteem is shot to bits. She struggles so much with thinking others don't like her, and wants to impress anyone who doesn't show much interest in her. She also sometimes tells me she wishes she was dead, as noone likes her, and then she could go to her grandparents (his side, died in the last 5 years)

Just don't know what to do about it all, do I go to the GP?

Oh Break, that's so sad. Your poor DD. I don't know how to answer your question, but I think it's worth asking around - ask your GP, ask school, try googling for counsellors in your area. It might also be worth talking to Women's Aid and asking if there are any children's support groups in your area - emotional abuse and neglect counts too. And don't underestimate the importance of your talks with her, trying to make sense of it all.

Oh, and if you find useful resources, please share!

I have been reading loads of these threads recently and they are so shockingly familiar to me that it is both heartbreaking and reassuring. My mother I am pretty sure is narcissistic. We have had a major falling out recently when I decided that I just couldn't take it anymore. We haven't spoken for over 2 months. This has been alot easier to cope with than dealing with her unpredictability, negativity and downright spitefulness.
My father is definitely an enabler and as I look back with more educated eyes I can see that he always has been. He has instigated a meeting with my DH, me and them tonight to try and resolve things. As you can imagine I am dreading it. I know that my mother is incapable of change. We have 3 children who they say they want to see. Their relationship is so minimal as to be almost non-existent, bearing in mind they only live 2 miles away and are both retired. So how do I deal with tonight?
My husband thinks I will lose my temper, which I really don't want to do. The last time I got off the phone with her I was physsically shaking. The 2 main issues seem to be all the dreadful things she has said to me over the years, and continues to do so and the fact they have no relationship with our children and yet they tell everyone how marvellous they are as grandparents!
I would rather they didn't have a relationship with the children but this is such a massive decision from which there seems to be no going back.
Sorry for the rambling and for highjacking but please can someone give me some advice?

You need to go to your GP and ask for her to be referred to the Child and adolescent mental health service. They will be able. To arrange counselling for her. It isn't as scary as it sounds but they have long wait ists so the sooner you are on the better. Mention the suicidal thoughts. And this will help you to get her seen more urgently. Good luck

Please try not to get hung up on definitions, people. In DSM5, the Cluster B disorders are all 'sociopathic' (not a diagnostic term; it means social illness) with one or more traits such as narcissism. It's a multidimensional spectrum with, say, 'pure' borderline and antisocial/psychopathic being on a self-aware scale and, say, schizotypal and narcissistic being unaware of their disorder. This also allows for the traits themselves, eg narcissistic, to be applied diagnostically without excessive focus on the patient's level of functional impairment. www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision/pages/personalitydisorders.aspx

For anyone who's interested:-
"The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose a trait specified personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in self (identity or self-direction) and interpersonal (empathy or intimacy) functioning.
B. One or more pathological personality trait domains OR specific trait facets within domains, considering ALL of the following domains:

1. Negative Affectivity
2. Detachment
3. Antagonism
4. Disinhibition vs. Compulsivity
5. Psychoticism

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual?s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations. D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual?s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual?s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment. E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual?s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma)." www.dsm5.org/proposedrevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=23

Please bear in mind that we are not psychiatrists and only a handful of PD sufferers ever present for diagnosis. Naming the problem is helpful to us, since a disordered personality is foreign to those of us who are neurotypical and we need to understand the rigidity of PD thinking & feeling. The afflicted follow fixed patterns; amateur diagnosis can help us understand why we can't understand them and make decisions on how to interact.

Sorry, I didn't mean this to turn into a 101 lecture I just find it unhelpful to nitpick over exact terms - but a general picture of the PD person's thought patterns can be very useful indeed. Hope I've made some sense.

I am so, so sorry for all the heartache recent posters have been through :(
I, too, keep expecting my family to give a shit - they only will if helping me can be turned to their advantage - and, ever since I've been shaking off my 'fleas', have lost nearly all my (narc) friends. It's a bugger ... but, once you've stepped through the mirror, you don't want to go back to weirdworld even if it means being lonely