A confusing and horrible mess

[JOW87]

It is very difficult to know where to begin so everything will make sense.
I will start at the event which has caused the horrible mess then fill in the details etc from before and after then.
On Saturday night on the way home from a night out my mum told my dad that she didn?t want to be with him anymore and he went ballistic and choked her until she passed out.
In the few weeks before this has happened my mum has started to get distant with all of us and saying nasty and upsetting things to my dad.
On his part he has grown over the last few months from being a very placid man into having bouts of anger and road rage totally out of proportion for what was involved.
She works in a local workers club four times a week and when not working dad will also go in there but he has been becoming more unhappy about going in over the last few months due to the type of people mum has gotten very friendly with, i.e., young mothers who drink all day with their children sat in the pushchair, parents who have 13 year olds sat in there at one in the morning while they drink, glasses of whiskey at 10 in the morning every morning, etc. The sort of people she would not normally give the time of day to.
Dad hates them and we have all seen the change in her over the last few weeks as she has become friendlier with them and makes up any excuse to stay in the club.
One thing which I do have to point out is that with his support over the last 18 months she has gone from size 24 to nearly size 14 and she does look good for it.
When she told him that she didn?t want to be with him anymore, he asked her if it was because of her weight loss and she thought she could do better and she told him that she could do far better than something like him. He says he cannot remember what he did and has no memory of what happened until he was picked up walking along in the middle of a dual carriageway by the police trying to get hit by a lorry.
He has been charged with assault by beating and has to wait a few weeks until it goes to court.
He went to the doctors on Tuesday to get anger management and he has bad depression and has apparently had it for at least six months which has been causing his anger.
We know mum is going through a depression, she gets the same thing every five to seven years where she wants none of us and to be single and no one means anything to her. Everything and everyone she would at any other time value and love is rejected.
They have been married 25 years next month and over all that time they have been a very loving couple. They never call themselves husband and wife; they are soul mates and best friends. And the marriage has always been a partnership. They have had their arguments and a few times have not talked for a few days but that?s only human. But there has never been any violence of any sort before.
She is staying with our Nan while he is at the house and she says everything is over, he cant talk to her due to bail conditions but we can all see its not mum talking its her depression. I can understand how she is feeling at the moment with dad but she is also being like it with everyone. Saying she has no one in her life now which isn?t true.
Dad is devastated by his actions; it has broken him to a shadow of what he was. A solicitor phoned up this morning to offer him a defence solicitor and he has told them to p**s off as they wont be needed as he is pleading guilty and will take whatever is given to him for what he did.
My question is this, should my sister and I with the rest of the family support them both to try reconciliation?
As I said earlier, they are truly soul mates. As a daughter it is embarrassing walking around with them as they act like teenagers in love where ever we go. They are both good parents and have brought us up to know right from wrong. Dad know what he did was wrong and it is destroying him, mum wants nothing further to do with him. Should they just part or should we get them mentally stable first so they can decide with clear minds?

The answers you wanted you mean?

If you don't want advice don't ask for it!

You talk of your Mum having a mental health condition and you come across as judging her and blaming her. Yet you hold her responsible for your Dad's mental health and his actions. It is illogical.

If you come back to the thread. I write from the perspective of someone who has looked after a close friend with a mental health condition. Other people on this thread write from the perspective of people who have been abused, sexually assaulted. It's no bad thing to be aware that there are many different reasons for behaviour and mental health state changes. However, I think you are doing the right thing to step away from this thread, what you have been through is horrendous. It sounds like your Dad has been the constant in your life and to suddenly have people say he might be a cause of this must be shattering your world even further.

Keep an open mind but overall, look after yourself.

maristella - us humans often get angry and blaming when it's not logical - how many of us have done it when going through bereavement when clearly the person could not help dying for instance? We are not all logical. Have some compassion for a 19 year old girl who has possibly grown up with a Mum with a mental health illness and never had it really explained that it is not her fault and her Mum is not rejecting her when she shuts off and goes into her downs. Helpful to point it out to the OP that her Mum is not a willing perpetrator but, don't kick her when she is down.

You poor thing. What a horrible ordeal for you. My situation is slightly different but I have spent the last two years being far too involved in the breakdown of my parents long (30 years) and previously loving relationship. It has been bitter and sad and has involved more minor violence than your scenario but certainly serious concerns in that respect especially as my Dad is severely disabled and terminally ill. Anyway....it has really destroyed my life as well as theirs in many ways and if it wasn't for my DH I really don't know what I would have done. My main advice to you would be that however natural it feels to try and help, really try to point them in the direction of support elsewhere instead of placing yourself in the middle of it. As I have learnt to my detriment, it is an impossible place to be. When things kicked off for me I thought that, as a responsible adult, I could try and help them. Of course I realised that, when it comes to love and relationships, our previously wonderful parents, just like anyone else, can become monsters. It is incredibly upsetting to see as a 'child' however old you are! Anyway, I've gone on and on but basically, protect yourself first in this situation. It may seem unnatural and even selfish, but it is really really important. Once you are in the middle of it, it is very very difficult to get out.

You are conflating the issues. Her mental health problems are irrelevant to the issue you asked for advice on; whether you should encourage a reconciliation. The answer to that is "no", it is a black and white issue, the man in pancakeflipper's story killed his wife you cannot compare it and you do not know the circumstances, to say "oh well that strangler who killed his wife would have been safe to reconcile with her if he hadn't" is just silly.

There are two reasons why this question you asked is a black and white issue (in no particular order): a. It is always unwise to get involved in your parents' relationship, especially taking sides and trying to encourage any particular choice b. if your partner strangles you unconscious there is absolutely no way you should ever consider getting back together for any reason or in any circumstances. It is not worth it. The risk is staying and being murdered. There are plenty of other men out there who won't strangle her.

It can take a while to see abuse for what it is. If it was what was happening se very likely will not see it that way just now. She may not want to talk to you either because you are her daughter and also because you have nailed your colours to the mast.

People don't strangle people because they have had ongoing mental health problems, they strangle people because they are the kind of person who strangles someone with mental health problems, you are victim blaming. This is not a man-hating perspective you would get the same advice if it was your mum who strangled your dad.

If all you can do is think of them both as victims of her, in terms of this thread anyway, unsubstantiated mental health problems and encourage her to come back when she feels better. Live with him and support him practically then go and interrogate her I think what you will find out is only what you want to hear anyway.

The best advice is whatever is going on, do not involve yourself in it. Get some support for yourself for being in the middle of it and I think really think about this view that being strangled unconscious in a relationship is not a dealbreaker if the person treats you well generally because that is not likely to stand you in good stead in your life.

And to clarify, I have never said there was abuse, I am still not saying it now, I am saying that it has the hallmarks and should be considered as it is a plausible explanation and some of the things described are quite worrying and that nothing has been said on the thread that substantiates that not being one possibility and therefore the op being able to not consider it as an important reason not to take sides.

And I do think it is important to explain what things she says and about her mental illness because the only description of it so far gives me the impression that she is considered mentally ill and irrational when she says bad things about him or when she has friends he doesnt approve of and marched off to the doctor's then is considered in her "right mind again" when she says he is lovely to her. In that context you can see what impression it gives, you can also see that when everything you have said is basically taking your dad's side and you are at home with him i suspect and she has had to leave even though he strangled her, you are talking about making decisions when she is rational trotting out the "he is lovely to me" which seems to be how you tell she is rational is understandable.

This is the reasoning based on what had been said, if it is different then please explain but I must warn you that it wouldn't have any effect on the answer to the question "should I encourage them to reconcile?"

Offred, I didn't put my post as a point for reconciliation. I put it because as I said I think some people can do some horrendous and are not vile people but good people in dreadful circumstances.

I personally think reconciliation would be wrong for them both. They both need help. Different help. They both appear to be struggling and would be a disaster and make each other very miserable be destructive together in this current state.

I still wish JOW loads of luck as she must feel helpless watching this. I hope her and her siblings are coping ok.

Agree pancake, with the whole lot.

For your sake and theirs, try to keep out of this awful situation as much as you can.
It is not your issue to fix, or to oversee.

I don't think your mum should go back under any circumstances personally, your dad could have killed her.

If she is unwell, she needs to get better, but away from him.

She may well be mentally ill, as you think OP, but she isn't stupid. Which is why she does not want to reconcile with a man who tried to kill her.

Pancakeflipper on reflection your first post was really not a sensible one don't you think? I'm staggared you thought it was wise to post it tbh.

OP you are in denial. Your dad is abusive.

Why was it not sensible?

I think amber means because the op didn't ask whether ppl who strangle are evil people but because she asked if she should encourage a reconciliation when they were in their right minds so when you gave your example it seemed as though you were saying "yes, sometimes it isn't the end of the road".

Because it seems as though the OP has taken it to mean that its ok that her father strangled her mother and he is still a 'nice' person despite doing so.

I disagree as would most people.

Your post appears to have validated the OPs thinking that its her mothers fault he did this and that he is blameless.

Yes that too Offred.

OPs mum needs to never be near him again for the sake of her life. A reconciliation is insane. As is the idea that her own family thinks its a good idea.

No it's not meant to validate his actions. It's saying that we can do and are capable of horrendous actions with horrendous consequences and that person may not have been breathing evil nasties. I don't know what drove her father to this action. But I felt at the time of posting ( rightly or wrongly) there was a vibe of her father was just bad. End of.

I do know living with someone with MH issues is bloody hard work and finding somewhere to release the pressure is essential or flashpoints will occur.

I certainly never meant to offend or be flippant.

I get what you meant pancakeflipper. I don't believe abusers are necessarily "evil people" if he even is an abuser, I suspect but I couldn't say. I think the "evil people" thing is a diversion, it is only "evil deeds" that matter. What I mean is it is perfectly possible for someone nice to also be abusive. If we forget that nice people do horrible things or that people who do horrible things can be nice then it creates situations where people stay with people who strangle them because on the whole the person is nice.

The road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that...

I don't know what drove her father to this action

OP said in her first post that he 'went ballistic' and strangled her until she passed out because she told him she didn't want to be with him anymore. thats what 'drove' him to it.

OPs mum doesn't sound like someone with MH issues. She sounds like an abused spouse who has after the final straw decided to walk.

Statistically the most dangerous time for an abused spouse is when they decide to leave- as the above proves. He couldve killed her. Him being a 'goodie' or a 'baddie' is really not the issue.

I would love to get into the situation you first posted about but this thread is probably not the place.

I might suggest that your mother's repeated bouts of depression may be largely due to the controlling nature which your father has over your mother....she has been trying to stand up for herself maybe all these years and when she does...he is placid...you say.... but maybe it is more about him ignoring and belittling any feelings and opinions she has had which don't hold with him....

she has been maybe trapped by this passive/aggressive man and people have been convinced she's 'going off the rails again' and just needs more pills from the GP and she'll be fine....this could be exactly how he has maintained control and she has had nobody to turn to,.... as everyone thinks she is the one with depressive illness....don't you ever wonder the cause of this though....has nobody ever sat and given her the right to express herself and what she is feeling so down about?????

It doesn't matter about the new friends she is spending time with.....I would see this as her actually making a stand against him and her not wanting anything to do with him should be listened to.....why don't you support your mother with her choices...you don't have to like the people she chooses to be around...perhaps this is also an enditement (spelling? ) of how alone your mother has been throughout these years...that she chooses these people and shuns her family...she hasn't had support from family and maybe is getting support through these new people in some way?????

I think your mother needs the support more than your father....he is good at making everything about him and garnering support for himself everytime....what about your poor mother and how she has been left by all of this????

I really think you must try to look at all of this from a different perspective....maybe the happy, soulmate vision you have (aided by your father's control and your mothers cooperation) has been more about your mother towing the party line and walking on eggshells you couldn't see????

The OP can't handle hearing these things as it will force her to view her own father from a different perspective. It is no doubt v frightening to come to terms with. I too feel her mothers behaviour is that if a very long suffering abused spouse. Poor woman.

it must be very hard to look at this from a different perspective OP and I understand you are probably angry, hurt and shocked by the replies here....but...you must at least realise that so many people cannot be so wrong....can they???/

maybe the best thing for you to do right now...is to distance yourself a bit from both your parents and deal with your own feelings....

supporting your parents isn't about what you think is best for them....it is about them deciding what's best for themselves as individual's....you must support them in this way...whether you like it or not....you need to be standing beside them as 2 separate people or walking away if you can't offer your support in their choices...

OP posted upthread, "One last thing though, my younger sister who is 14 is going to a party Saturday night. Mum told her she could take a bottle of vodka from the cupboard with her if she wanted. My properly thinking mum would never allow something like that. "

This is exactly the sort of thing that would happen to my friend when she was going through a period of illness. Her normally loved and cared for DCs would suddenly be ignored or allowed, indeed encouraged, to do non-age appropriate things. It was something to look out for as an early symptom of a periodic deterioration.