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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

WWYD - SIL and Niece row, can't help but take N's side?!?!

92 replies

flute123 · 01/08/2012 12:38

I'll try and keep this short - have no idea what to say to them both!
So my niece is a v lovely girl, mega hardworking, got straight A*s at GCSE and heading for all As at AS level, grade 8 instrument etc etc. She went to an absolutely appalling state comp, zero facilities, was picked on for being clever, really miserable for her. Is now at a better state sixth form and much happier. SIL has just told her that they will be sending her younger brother (only sibling) to private school from 11 and Niece has gone absolutely bonkers. They've had a huge row, SIL is genuinely shocked that niece is taking it badly but when I heard them explaining the problem I couldn't help but see niece;s side...she's saying it feels like her brother is getting better treatment, she's saying it's really unfair because he's lazy (this is true, his school reports have hardly been glowing) and why didn't she get the chance to go etc etc. SIL is simply saying she doesn't have to justify herself (or BIL) to a 17 year old which seems to only antagonize niece even more. They asked me to talk it through with them...I've delayed for a few days to have a think! Help?!?!?!?!

FWIW..all my kids are/will be at private school so I can obviously see the benefit, but I wouldn't send just one of the four....

OP posts:
MissFaversam · 01/08/2012 15:09

If your sister wants a bit of backing up then she needs to justify herself to you then doesn't she.

Proudnscary · 01/08/2012 15:09

It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about your niece's feelings.

As her mother I bloody hope I would allow her to express those feelings and accept them and understand them. Even if the ultimate response is still 'we are the parents and this is our decision' it should be balanced with 'but I understand how you are feeling, let's talk about this'.

Catkinsthecatinthehat · 01/08/2012 15:11

They were aware of the nightmare that was her secondary school but their attitude was that my niece would just have to rise above it all

So they left her to sink or swim. I would be raging in her position, sorry. I know you don't want to cause upset, but they've asked for your opinion. Someone needs to stand up for her, and if the son is arrogant and cocky as you say, he may be lording it over her.

You've still not really explained why the son is being sent to private school. Why isn't he being expected to get stuck in and rise above problems.

Also, this is a huge emotional upset for her at a crucial time in her A-levels. After struggling through years of huge difficulty, this could be the bit that tips her over.

MarygoeZforgold · 01/08/2012 15:12

Yep, if she had been included in the discussion, and asked her opinion of the school she might well have said "I wouldn't send a dog there", so they might have had her on side.

My kids understand why ds1 is treated differently, and because they love him and we have always discussed things with them, they accept it. Now, I might be building up resentment for the future, but I don't think so. If I refused to tell them why we have made the decuisions we have, then they might feel much more angry about it all.

They need to treat her as an adult, and talk to her.

DontmindifIdo · 01/08/2012 15:14

Also, at 17, she can handle the information about the decision - if it's because he has additional needs, or they didn't realise how bad it would be until they'd already committed her to the school, or the couldn't afford it but now can, she could handle that.

Perhaps tell your SIL that actually, she's not being asked to justify herself, she's being asked to defend herself, if she doesn't do that, she should accept that her DD will choose to not forgive this slight. If she can't justify it, then perhaps she needs to admit she has been unfair to her DD and apologise. If they could have afforded for her and could have given her more opportunities but didn't bother, (obviously not objecting to private school) then they owe her an apology.

Children might have no expectation to demand an apology, but adults, when in the wrong, should be prepared to apologise.

DontmindifIdo · 01/08/2012 15:16

(BTW - a good parenting tip I was told is if you can't explain "why?" about a decision you have made to your DCs, then you made the wrong decision.)

flute123 · 01/08/2012 15:17

And as for the precise reasoning behind their decision to send darling nephew private...I don't really understand either, to be completely honest. They're saying the results of the state school have gone downhill but I've looked online and they're broadly exactly the same year on year (not that that's a good thing I might add!) so my suspicions are that they are sending him so he is pushed into doing better.

OP posts:
piprabbit · 01/08/2012 15:20

I went to a local comp and my little sister went to a grammar school. I didn't get to sit the 11+ as we moved from a non-grammar area the summer before I started secondary school.
Logically and rationally, I am very pleased that my DSis had a great educational opportunity.
But...I hated my school. I was bullied throughout. I was getting good results on my own so the teachers left me to it - not once do I remember any teacher looking at a piece of my work and offering me any advice on how to improve or stretch myself. I did OK, but will never know if I could have done better.
If I am 100% honest with myself, I have to say I'm still a bit hacked off that my DSis had a chance I never had and that I didn't get the support I needed from my parents while I was coping with secondary school. 25 years later and I'm still not entirely OK with the decisions my parents made over those few years.

So I can fully understand that your niece is furious at the moment. Unless your SIL works hard to correct the situation, she is risking her future relationship with her daughter. And it is up to your SIL to do all the legwork and find a way of justifying her decision and selling it to her DD. SIL is the adult and TBH should have realised that her DD wasn't going to take it well. There is very little time to rebuild things before your niece leaves for university - and I have seen people completely mess up their A-levels due to stress and family problems.

blackcurrants · 01/08/2012 15:21

OP: This was me. My grandfather paid for my Dbro to go to boarding school (totally beyond my parents' means), I and my sister went to local schools. Perfectly good local schools, as it happens, and we all did fine, but I am the one with 2 postgraduate degrees, I am the 'academic' one in the family, and it still rankles a bit. We're talking 20 years down the line, here!

I'm not being petty, I don't think. I have a very good relationship with my parents and my siblings, very affectionate, very comfortable - but the fact is that my brother got preferential treatment because it was assumed (by my grandfather) that sons-and-heirs needed a proper schooling, whereas daughters didn't.

My mother was quite open about it when I asked her in my teens, she said she felt it was terribly unfair to us girls but that didn't justify her denying my brother the chance when it was offered to him. Now, had it been my parents who had made that decision, rather than taken up an offer from my grandfather - I think it would have affected our relationship in the long term, certainly. Your SIL is bonkers if she doesn't think she needs to explain herself to her daughter; she needs to if she wants to avoid hurting her daughter deeply, and risking a permanent alienation.

Tell your niece, btw, that if she's thinking Oxbridge then coming out of a state school can be to her advantage depending on which colleges she applies to. Many oxbridge colleges want to boost their state-school acceptance rate, and if she can get some sympathetic careers advisors to help her with mock interviews etc (or even better some oxbridge grad friend-of-friends) that will help her gain some of the lost ground that private school pupils will certainly already have been given.

It's certainly true that a big-name public school can help you in life but not all fee-paying schools have the same heft/clout. What they do give you is extras (music, drama, interview practice, teachers on-call after-hours to help with work, etc) which it sounds like your niece would have loved. And a safer environment for her to study, the poor thing.

If I were in the deeply unpleasant role of peacekeeper, I would suggest, gently, to your niece that this isn't a reward for her brother's slackness, it's remedial help. Tell her she is brilliant to have done what she's done, and she will always know that no one ever gave her any special favours, it was all her hard graft, and that counts for more (and may well count for more in uni applications).

Then tell her parents that she deserves a big, big slice of this suddenly-discovered money-for-education pie. Tell her that YOU will be (or make sure her parents are) on hand to make sure that things a private school pupil would have had on their CV (debate club, directing 6th form play, orchestra, work experience with barrister, captain of sports team) will also be on hers, because you will make sure her parents start coughing up for that stuff now. If they can afford school fees, they can afford grooming/coaching for their applying-to-uni daughter.
I'm fairly sure she doesn't want to deny these benefits to her brother, but it is monstrously unfair that they are being given to him and not her without any explanation. It seems like she is being left to sink or swim alone, while he gets a cushy life raft. So, while she doesn't want him to drown, why was there no help for her? Does no one care? That is the answer your SIL owes her daughter, otherwise she will make up her own answer, and it won't be one that is conducive to good family relations.

PoohBearsHole · 01/08/2012 15:22

OP, your poor poor niece. What a horrible and unthinking set of parents your bil/sil are. Whether it is true or not your dn is always going to feel like the one who isn't loved quite as much. Your nephew may well need extra help but I am not sure how this can ever be justified to a 17 yo. And frankly Music lessons out of state school, you can't seriously be thinking music lessons are the equivalent of public school? Seriously?

My mind is boggling, with her intelligence and diligence did your il's not think of how much their dd could achieve afforded the additional privelage of public school? Not just educationally but in the future too? I feel so sorry for your niece, parents should never do this to their children Sad

blackcurrants · 01/08/2012 15:28

whoops, turned into a massive rant there! The last paragraph is the key one, flute - and I hope you can make your SIL see that while it is absolutely right that she should do her best for her son, she needs to be careful about how her daughter feels if she doesn't want to risk a real break in their relationship. Which would be so sad, and so avoidable.

CogitoErgOlympics · 01/08/2012 15:28

That resentment won't go away if they persist with the 'we make the decisions' approach. It's galling when you're the sensible, hard-working one to see the lazy or awkward ones get special treatment. And then, if you have the audacity to complain for once, you're branded as being 'difficult'. I've had it my whole life and it's totally and utterly unfair

It is definitely sexist. If it was a little sister, this would not be happening..

MerryCosIWonaGold · 01/08/2012 15:32

I have had a change of viewpoint recently. I don't think you need to treat all children the same. What you need to do is love them equally and do what is best for them. There is some stuff on this in 'Siblings without Rivalry' (maybe SIL needs to read it!).

If your niece is the elder child she will probably always feel a bit less loved from the birth of her sibling, and I am sure this is coming to play with the situation over private school, feeling that her brother is more loved than her and so therefore resenting it. If she could genuinely see that it is to help him, because he has weaknesses then it may help her to see it more objectively.

Also your SIL's approach isn't the best. They should have explained in more detail why they are doing this, and why they didn't do it for her. Did they do anything for your niece when she was having a hard time? Try and help with friendships, get her counselling? Anything that was parental intervention? Have they done anything for her which they haven't done for her brother lime music lessons, expensive instrument etc? I just think you do need to do what's best for each child and not always focus on giving them everything the same because each child is different.

MerryCosIWonaGold · 01/08/2012 15:39

I also think it sounds like you are not really going to be able to peace-keep in this situation. Maybe better for your to tell SIL (in private) how you feel and that you do not feel able to be neutral in this situation. Perhaps you could be your niece's advocate and your SIL could find someone to be hers, or cope on her own as an adult. As long as your SIL knows in advance that you are NOT neutral.

But personally I don't think SIL has made the wrong decision, she's just handling it really badly.

(By the way, I was the clever one bullied throughout school too, I know what it's like. Never wanted to go private though!).

ImperialBlether · 01/08/2012 15:43

I'm horrified at the thought of sending a lazy and arrogant boy to private school.

QuacksForDoughnuts · 01/08/2012 15:48

What IB said, it might cure the laziness but could equally make the arrogance worse...

MerryCosIWonaGold · 01/08/2012 15:49

If he's not exceptionally bright, it may be good for the arrogance.

Catkinsthecatinthehat · 01/08/2012 15:57

It's not a private/public school issue. It's a parental support and interest issue.

OP you said that her school was awful, her time there was a nightmare, but the parents stayed out of it, expected her plough on, and thought her isolation was OK as she could meet people outside school. So by the sound of it they never intervened or fought her corner. And suddenly what's been acceptable for her is absolutely no way in a million years good enough for golden boy.

I'm astonished that her parents can't grasp this, and have taken such a haughty attitude towards her distress. I would be seriously worried that she's a risk of leaving her sixth form, getting a job and moving out.

ScrambledSmegs · 01/08/2012 15:59

I'd be honest actually - say you can see your niece's point, and that they are treating their children differently. No wonder she's furious, poor kid.

The fact that they are refusing to justify their decision to her says that they know they're in the wrong, they just don't want to admit it.

Oh and my parents sent me and DB to substantially different schools. I didn't really notice as there isn't a big age gap and I still received a very good education, but all of my friends have subsequently commented upon it. In retrospect it really doesn't look good.

DontmindifIdo · 01/08/2012 16:21

Just as an aside (although possibly not as an aside really), as in my case, my DB going private, me going to state - I've heard many, many stories about this. I've never heard of any situation there there's not been even a little bitterness by the DC who is state educated, even though as an adult they can see their parents reasoning - however, I've never heard of a case where the DC being privately educated was a girl with the boy going to state.

There's always very, very good reasons for boys to get the private education that never seem to be an issue for girls. Does anyone with extensive MN knowledge know of a family who privately educated a girl but not the boy? (I'm not looking for stories of a girl who passed 11+ and a boy who failed it, or even girl passing to get into good private school but boy failing the enterence exam, that in my mind is not the same as both DCs had the same opportunity)

CogitoErgOlympics · 01/08/2012 16:24

"I've never heard of a case where the DC being privately educated was a girl with the boy going to state."

Bingo.

quietlysuggests · 01/08/2012 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

blackcurrants · 01/08/2012 16:30

Dontmind I know a few other women who's brothers have been privately educated and not them, but not one family where it was the girls that got the extra cash thrown at them and only them.

I think you have a point :)

Yama · 01/08/2012 16:36

I know of a family where the seven sons went to private boarding schools and the two sisters went to state.

I also know a woman who went to state and her little brother was sent to private a couple of years into his secondary education due to misbehaviour and underachieving. It didn't make much of a difference so they sent him to a different private school in the nearest city. He had no interest in being academic. I gather he wished they'd just leave him alone.

Having things handed to you on a plate doesn't always motivate.

BlameItOnTheBogey · 01/08/2012 17:10

Dontmind see my earlier post. I was privately educated. My brothers weren't.

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